Are we required to obtain permits?

[CANative]

It is discussions like these that make lenders and underwriters think appraisers are the permit police. Some areas never required permits, some have different rules for permits, many have no viable way to research permits. Let the lender and title company sort it out.

Daggumit Hicks! Now Kennedy is going to taunt us with another technicolor transliteration of technical trivia.

 

[Mike Kennedy]

Lee is correct, report and anlyze. Mike is not answering the to the original premise made by Lee. Mike is over-analyzing, Mike is way-beyond the market; sorry, the market is not as sophisticated as Mike is making it out to be...with or without all the zoning and building code notes repeated over and over. Our markets have the same codes too.

There are 1000's upon 1000's of properties changing hands with "permit issues" more so in those very old communities. Apparantely there are those that draw an imaginary, ever-changing line as to where, what and when they will "inforce" the findings of their "sometime" permit search.

You are a data gatherer; a "reader" of the MARKET; a market analyzer and a reporter of said analysis...dont be any more than that.

"our markets" - give us an example, name one?

p.s. which Definition of HABU do you utilize?

p.s.s. how goes your search for a link to http://appraisersforum.com/showpost.php?p=2341480&postcount=34

 

[Mike Kennedy]

It is discussions like these that make lenders and underwriters think appraisers are the permit police.

It is actually State and Federal Banking Laws stipulating Risk Aversion policies, including NOT lending on Illegally Improved, or Occupied, Real Property which result in UW Appraisal Assignment Conditions (which are binding on Appraisers who accept the assignments) including confirmation/verification of Legal, LNC, or Illegal Use - in Municipalities which have Building Laws, Zoning Laws, or Combo BZ Laws.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) defines mortgage fraud as "... a material misstatement, misrepresentation, or omission relied on by an underwriter or lender to fund, purchase, or insure a loan."

Those Appraisers who utilize the GSE summary report forms would do well to review the Appraiser's Certifications:
2. sentence 2
3, 10, 12, 13, 15, 18 last phrase, 21, 23, and the last & most important #25.

 

[Mike Kennedy]

Mike, you have to return to the details of my example for it is that which forms the basis for our discussion.

There, the market is indifferent to "permit" or "no permit" and there is no enforcement of any consequence. The market does not distinguish--as to prices--based upon whether there was a "permit" or "no permit".

Under this scenario, if the appraiser--knowing his (or her) market--will merely report and analyze data with the same status as the subject, the result is an opinion of Market Value.

Lee, your "as-is" market value opinion above (for a property such as the OP's) is based on, and reported to the client in an appraisal report as a Legal, LNC, or Illegal Use?

 

[Tim The Enchanter]

If replacing light fixtures and faucets and sinks and things in your own house w/o permits is a crime, I plead the 5th.

And assuming that extends to other peoples houses, a lot of contractors around here will plead the 5th as well.

 

[Fnbpos]

bldg codes & zoning ordinances have distinctly different purposes

Zoning prescribes land usage and regulates the function, size, and certain exterior aspects of bldg

...in contrast building code deals with structural and mechanical aspects of bldg, as they affect public health, safety and welfare.

Problem: Finished Basement.

Is it allowed per zoning ? if yes, the its legal PER ZONING CODE...it is in fact allowed. We have a finished basement and zoning allows it....legal

NO Permit ? then you have a violation of the BUILDING CODE.

Note the appraisal asks for zoning compliance, NOT building code compliance.

 

[Tim The Enchanter]

bldg codes & zoning ordinances have distinctly different purposes

Zoning prescribes land usage and regulates the function, size, and certain exterior aspects of bldg

...in contrast building code deals with structural and mechanical aspects of bldg, as they affect public health, safety and welfare.

Problem: Finished Basement.

Is it allowed per zoning ? if yes, the its legal PER ZONING CODE...it is in fact allowed. We have a finished basement and zoning allows it....legal

NO Permit ? then you have a violation of the BUILDING CODE.

Note the appraisal asks for zoning compliance, NOT building code compliance.

That's some good hair splitting. Agreed.

 

[CANative]

bldg codes & zoning ordinances have distinctly different purposes

Zoning prescribes land usage and regulates the function, size, and certain exterior aspects of bldg

...in contrast building code deals with structural and mechanical aspects of bldg, as they affect public health, safety and welfare.

Problem: Finished Basement.

Is it allowed per zoning ? if yes, the its legal PER ZONING CODE...it is in fact allowed. We have a finished basement and zoning allows it....legal

NO Permit ? then you have a violation of the BUILDING CODE.

Note the appraisal asks for zoning compliance, NOT building code compliance.

Excellent ... Why only 37 posts in the last 10 years?

 

[23Degrees]

bldg codes & zoning ordinances have distinctly different purposes

Zoning prescribes land usage and regulates the function, size, and certain exterior aspects of bldg

...in contrast building code deals with structural and mechanical aspects of bldg, as they affect public health, safety and welfare.

Problem: Finished Basement.

Is it allowed per zoning ? if yes, the its legal PER ZONING CODE...it is in fact allowed. We have a finished basement and zoning allows it....legal

NO Permit ? then you have a violation of the BUILDING CODE.

Note the appraisal asks for zoning compliance, NOT building code compliance.

First, thank you for this post. No "check every outlet for a permit" straw man, no boiler plate to the rescue or just add a cost to cure arguments - just a straight forward explanation.

An explanation I have little argument with when the zoning code does not indicate the need to obtain proper permits.

Some apparently don't. And some definitely do.

And when they do and you declare that property with the readily observable no permit construction that deviates from records to be legal as per zoning compliance in an "as is" report then there is a problem.

If you want to argue that this is not a problem in these cases then I'll invite you to answer the question first posed in post 61. Tell us that a home, built entirely without permits - total bootleg, but technically an SFR in an R1 zone, gets the "legal" check off for zoning compliance when zoning code explicitly requires obtaining the proper permits and other paperwork.

 

[Mike Kennedy]

It is actually State and Federal Banking Laws stipulating Risk Aversion policies, including NOT lending on Illegally Improved, or Occupied, Real Property which result in UW Appraisal Assignment Conditions (which are binding on Appraisers who accept the assignments) including confirmation/verification of Legal, LNC, or Illegal Use - in Municipalities which have Building Laws, Zoning Laws, or Combo BZ Laws.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) defines mortgage fraud as "... a material misstatement, misrepresentation, or omission relied on by an underwriter or lender to fund, purchase, or insure a loan."

Those Appraisers who utilize the GSE summary report forms would do well to review the Appraiser's Certifications:
2. sentence 2
3, 10, 12, 13, 15, 18 last phrase, 21, 23, and the last & most important #25.

Federal Trade Commission Act; Section 5
http://appraisalbuzz.com/well-if-the...-richard-hagar