FHA - Crawlspace Compliant?

[TruJa]

If your point is to screw over property owners
to make them pay a couple of hundred dollars for a re-inspection
because there were some candybar wrappers in the crawl space,
then you are making a point I don't agree with.

But if you're working with criminal clients, hey go for it. The more bad press you both get,
the better to wake up those who are shopping for a loan.

If you had some common sense, you would say, hey, homeowner, please remove that stuff in the crawlspace, because it's not allowed, and I'll be in my car working on my sketch. Let me know when it's clean and I'll come back and take the photos.

But then you wouldn't get $$$ for a 1004D.


.

OK last post and I'll sign off, because posts like this last one are ridiculous with no basis in reality. I was honestly exploring a grey area for when does "debris" become a MPR issue. I know there will be a difference of opinions with some saying 1 bucket full is too much on one end of the spectrum, and some saying "Why bother to look in the crawlspace" who just prop it open enough to stick their camera in and snap a single photo and then rush to their next "inspection". I don't think either of those appraiser's would be serving the public interest, and that the right answer is in between somewhere.

I've only conditioned an appraisal once to require cleaning up the crawlspace when there was more than a yard of books, clothes & trash all over just inside the access. I'm inclined to describe the "mess" and show photos in my most recent case (and in "grey" areas) and let the underwriter weigh in if they think differently. I don't feel like I resolved this well, but given some of the responses, I can understand some of the silly revisions I get better.

 

[Meandering]

OK last post and I'll sign off, because posts like this last one are ridiculous with no basis in reality. I was honestly exploring a grey area for when does "debris" become a MPR issue. I know there will be a difference of opinions with some saying 1 bucket full is too much on one end of the spectrum, and some saying "Why bother to look in the crawlspace" who just prop it open enough to stick their camera in and snap a single photo and then rush to their next "inspection". I don't think either of those appraiser's would be serving the public interest, and that the right answer is in between somewhere.

I've only conditioned an appraisal once to require cleaning up the crawlspace when there was more than a yard of books, clothes & trash all over just inside the access. I'm inclined to describe the "mess" and show photos in my most recent case (and in "grey" areas) and let the underwriter weigh in if they think differently. I don't feel like I resolved this well, but given some of the responses, I can understand some of the silly revisions I get better.

Your entire question from the start was ridiculous and boarders on corruption.

When you made the inspection appointment with the owner, did you go over the things they have no way of knowing, until they are mandated to pay re-inspection fees?
Things like, the windows have to work, the outlets and switches need covers, you need clear access to the attic and there can not be debris in the crawlspace?

Do you discuss those things with the property owners? Or just show up with your secret list of requirements that will cost them more money because they did not know what the "requirements" were?

.

 

[OtisMoon64]

Dont' mean to highjack the thread but how does the MPR and crawlspace requirements apply to MFR (Multi-family residences). Do singles and multi-family both have to comply with FHA requirements? It seems like most MFR always have debris!

 

[glenn walker]

It's called using some good old fashioned common sense. The crawl space observation has been around on FHA for as long as I can remember. The reason for its implementation was for the appraiser to look for things that could effect the soundness of the property. O a homes with raised floors, plumbing leaks, poor drainage, puddling water, excessive moisture , or poor drainage can be a costly repair for a new low down payment buyer. Another issue is to observe that the owners had not used temporary measures to hold up a sagging floor joists, which must be sufficiently above ground level to provide access for maintaining and repairing duct work and plumbing. When you observe , car-jacks, bricks, old stumps being used as piers, you know you have a problem. When you observe excessive moisture or water under the house, you have a problem. NOW WE get to trash and debris ? Trash is a loosely used word, but in my book, its anything that may have an-adverse effect on the health and safety of the occupants, is it the type of trash that attracts, rats, is it old motor oil , cans or containers of fluids ? OR IS it just-debris left by a plumbing contractor or some other things that are not going to effect the safety or soundness of the property.

One issue with so called trash is the question - Does it or is it blocking any vents ? If not then no big deal. Under almost all crawl spaces there is going to be some debris from when the home was constructed. I ignore these items, because they have no negative effect on the soundness of the property . I only call out debris, when there is enough of it to where even a visual observation is not possible. The appraiser has to determine where the line is crossed, if he she wants to conduct themselfs like a Bureaucrat, then trash or debris, could be one paper bag. Guidelines are not laws, they are given with the understanding that the appraiser has the ability to make a judgement call based on some logic. Finally HUD says "Avoid Unnecessary Requirements Because They Increase Hounding Costs " I am not going to go back out and charge a borrower $150.00 bucks to have some minor debris removed.

 

[ZZGAMAZZ]

I see what you are saying, but I'm really not confusing them. I have multiple warnings in multiple places that I am not a home inspector, that I recommend all interested parties obtain a home inspection, and that my "inspection" is very limited in scope and purpose. Honestly, I almost always only do head & shoulder inspections and disclose this in my reports, (but I really do stick my head in and look around). Maybe 2-3x per year I see something I had better look at closer, so I do.

Might not mean much in tangile terms, but knowledgeable McKissock live instructor recently advised the class that we are conducting an "observation" rather than an "inspection" (but it's not always easy to use that word in a sentence).

 

[glenn walker]

Might not mean much in tangile terms, but knowledgeable McKissock live instructor recently advised the class that we are conducting an "observation" rather than an "inspection" (but it's not always easy to use that word in a sentence).

Yes you are correct its an-observation which is just a weasel word so that someone cannot say we are home inspectors. As the mayor of Realville, I was once doing a FHA and the owner came out and asked why i was looking at his roof, turning on lights, flushing toilets. I told him it was not a home inspection but just an-observation . He looks at me and says that the biggest bunch of BS I have ever heard. He then proceeds to tell me that once I turned on his AC and Heater, once I flush his toilets and once I started poking my head around, thats no longer considered an-observation and is an-inspection. I said yes but the observation is also part of my appraisal. Now he says more of the same non-sense , so now you are both an inspector and appraiser, are there any other hats that you also wear. I laugh and said look I get your point but I am not allowed to call my self an-inspector because I am an-appraiser and I can only report what I see or hear. Now I get done and he sarcastically says, well is everything OK- I look at him and say, well in CA you need to double safety strap the hot water heater and install a Carbon Monoxide detector- The guy goes through the roof and says -so now you are also a code compliance inspector ? I laughed and said look I guess the difference between a Home Inspection and a Visual Observation is like a lady telling you that she is a little bit pregnant, it can be a tuff one to wrap your arms around : ) LMAO

 

[ZZGAMAZZ]

Yes you are correct its an-observation which is just a weasel word so that someone cannot say we are home inspectors. As the mayor of Realville, I was once doing a FHA and the owner came out and asked why i was looking at his roof, turning on lights, flushing toilets. I told him it was not a home inspection but just an-observation . He looks at me and says that the biggest bunch of BS I have ever heard. He then proceeds to tell me that once I turned on his AC and Heater, once I flush his toilets and once I started poking my head around, thats no longer considered an-observation and is an-inspection. I said yes but the observation is also part of my appraisal. Now he says more of the same non-sense , so now you are both an inspector and appraiser, are there any other hats that you also wear. I laugh and said look I get your point but I am not allowed to call my self an-inspector because I am an-appraiser and I can only report what I see or hear. Now I get done and he sarcastically says, well is everything OK- I look at him and say, well in CA you need to double safety strap the hot water heater and install a Carbon Monoxide detector- The guy goes through the roof and says -so now you are also a code compliance inspector ? I laughed and said look I guess the difference between a Home Inspection and a Visual Observation is like a lady telling you that she is a little bit pregnant, it can be a tuff one to wrap your arms around : ) LMAO

---
"Being a tuff one to wrap your arms around a little bit pregnant lady" is an operational definition of a double-entendre.

Realtor lady tells me last week that in 15 years she never heard of an appraiser checking the crawl space for an FHA assignment . . . but then I measured the SFR that was being marketed as 1,800 sf as 1,250 sf (even including the finished breezeway as GLA), which resulted in the contract price being reduced by about $30K, so who got got . . .

 

[Marty Boone]

Yes you are correct its an-observation which is just a weasel word so that someone cannot say we are home inspectors. As the mayor of Realville, I was once doing a FHA and the owner came out and asked why i was looking at his roof, turning on lights, flushing toilets. I told him it was not a home inspection but just an-observation . He looks at me and says that the biggest bunch of BS I have ever heard. He then proceeds to tell me that once I turned on his AC and Heater, once I flush his toilets and once I started poking my head around, thats no longer considered an-observation and is an-inspection. I said yes but the observation is also part of my appraisal. Now he says more of the same non-sense , so now you are both an inspector and appraiser, are there any other hats that you also wear. I laugh and said look I get your point but I am not allowed to call my self an-inspector because I am an-appraiser and I can only report what I see or hear. Now I get done and he sarcastically says, well is everything OK- I look at him and say, well in CA you need to double safety strap the hot water heater and install a Carbon Monoxide detector- The guy goes through the roof and says -so now you are also a code compliance inspector ? I laughed and said look I guess the difference between a Home Inspection and a Visual Observation is like a lady telling you that she is a little bit pregnant, it can be a tuff one to wrap your arms around : ) LMAO

Glenn, your guy was not wrong with the exception that we do not claim to be home inspectors. I posted this once before. It is information I have copied from the Pennsylvania Home Inspector License Act. This is not information I am going to debate as it relates to an FHA appraisal. I complete many FHA appraisals and include all the "Get a Home Inspection" CYA stuff. I just think that what my state considers a Home Inspection is something that I do all the time without a license.

"Home inspection" means the examination and evaluation of the exterior and interior components of residential real property, which includes the inspection of any 2 or more of the following components of residential real property in connection with or to facilitate the sale, lease, or other conveyance of, or the proposed sale, lease or other conveyance of, residential real property:
(1) heating, ventilation, and air conditioning system;
(2) plumbing system;
(3) electrical system;
(4) structural composition;
(5) foundation;
(6) roof;
(7) masonry structure; or
(8) any other residential real property component as established by rule.

It is illegal for a person, including an entity, to act, engage, develop, practice or advertise as a home inspector without a proper home inspector license issued under the Pennsylvania Home Inspector License Act.

 

[spittman]

Is it just-debris left by a plumbing contractor or some other things that are not going to effect the safety or soundness of the property.

This. Just comment on what you see (or what you don't see) and let them decide if the crawlspace needs to be cleaned up.

 

[Dublin ohio]

Threads like this remind me of why I do not miss doing FHA appraisals