FHA - Crawlspace Compliant?

[Rlong]

To the grey area question: I do not require removal of say a few boxes of stuff and maybe a couple boards and extra roll of insulation etc.. I look at it as if I was the service person looking to enter and repair or inspect mechanical/electrical systems; would they impede me?. I was a contractor in a former life and have crawled in a few crawl spaces and as long as I can move around, I don't require them to clean it out. Even if I had to push a box to one side to get to whatever it was I was looking for. I think I only remember one "too full" requiring cleanout.

Bob in CO

 

[Meandering]

Debris | Definition of Debris by Merriam-Webster​

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/debris
Debris definition is - the remains of something broken down or destroyed. How to use

Carefully stored items are not debris, by definition.


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[Ariba]

If the crawl space had adequate access and the floor joists were sufficiently above ground level to provide access for maintaining and repairing ductwork, plumbing, and HVAC then what is the deal with debris/storage? Nothing.

 

[TruJa]

Debris | Definition of Debris by Merriam-Webster​

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/debris
Debris definition is - the remains of something broken down or destroyed. How to use

Carefully stored items are not debris, by definition.


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So I hear you saying that the approved educational course which showed some "carefully stored" boards and indicated that they were debris so should be marked subject to them being removed, is wrong? Definitions require context (I don't want to change the subject of this thread, but look at all the definitions of "neighborhood" for example.)

 

[TruJa]

If the crawl space had adequate access and the floor joists were sufficiently above ground level to provide access for maintaining and repairing ductwork, plumbing, and HVAC then what is the deal with debris/storage? Nothing.

Except it seems that it does not meet MPR as described in the handbook. I agree that the structure is not in my opinion compromised in safety, soundness, or security. The "spirit" of the handbook is not violated (I don't think). However I don't make the rules about what the minimum standards or requirements are for FHA. And if they don't want us to require their handbook to be enforced as written why do they print it with that language, and why do their approved courses give the examples they give?

 

[Meandering]

So I hear you saying that the approved educational course which showed some "carefully stored" boards and indicated that they were debris so should be marked subject to them being removed, is wrong? Definitions require context (I don't want to change the subject of this thread, but look at all the definitions of "neighborhood" for example.)

I don't care who your "approved" educational provider of edumacation is

If you can't find a different definition of debris in the appraisal dictionary,

you are held to the language of the requirement.

Darn funny how that works out with language and requirements. Aint it?

.

 

[Ariba]

Except it seems that it does not meet MPR as described in the handbook. I agree that the structure is not in my opinion compromised in safety, soundness, or security. The "spirit" of the handbook is not violated (I don't think). However I don't make the rules about what the minimum standards or requirements are for FHA. And if they don't want us to require their handbook to be enforced as written why do they print it with that language, and why do their approved courses give the examples they give?

Would you apply the same standard if there is debris, clutter, and items stored in the house? IMHO, the handbook is a guide to be interrupted with common sense. Nothing in appraising is black and white, it all depends.

 

[TruJa]

I don't care who your "approved" educational provider of edumacation is

If you can't find a different definition of debris in the appraisal dictionary,

you are held to the language of the requirement.

Darn funny how that works out with language and requirements. Aint it?

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I get your point. In honesty if I see a couple candybar wrappers some trade threw into the crawlspace, even though it does meet Webster's definition of trash & debris, but I wouldn't say the property doesn't meet minimum property requirements. However if I see 400 candybar wrappers or whatever, then I'm probably going to say it needs to be cleaned up. I hope you see my point. The house I inspected was somewhere in between.

 

[TruJa]

Would you apply the same standard if there is debris, clutter, and items stored in the house? IMHO, the handbook is a guide to be interrupted with common sense. Nothing in appraising is black and white, it all depends.

Not the same standard obviously, because the requirement is for the crawlspace only - not for within the house or garage or back yard. However, if I could not fully inspect the house due to too much clutter, or there was an unsafe condition due to the clutter, that would be a different matter. I agree that we can't throw common sense completely out the window, but this isn't just about common sense appraisal issues, but to determine whether the property complies with the government's requirements for this program or not.

If it doesn't meet the requirements, observe, analyze, report, and move on. Let them get a waiver if they want to, but don't muddy the issue by certifying that the property is different than it really is.... But I do recognize its not always clear whether it meets the requirements or not. There are "grey" areas.

 

[Meandering]

I get your point. In honesty if I see a couple candybar wrappers some trade threw into the crawlspace, even though it does meet Webster's definition of trash & debris, but I wouldn't say the property doesn't meet minimum property requirements. However if I see 400 candybar wrappers or whatever, then I'm probably going to say it needs to be cleaned up. I hope you see my point. The house I inspected was somewhere in between.

If your point is to screw over property owners
to make them pay a couple of hundred dollars for a re-inspection
because there were some candybar wrappers in the crawl space,
then you are making a point I don't agree with.

But if you're working with criminal clients, hey go for it. The more bad press you both get,
the better to wake up those who are shopping for a loan.

If you had some common sense, you would say, hey, homeowner, please remove that stuff in the crawlspace, because it's not allowed, and I'll be in my car working on my sketch. Let me know when it's clean and I'll come back and take the photos.

But then you wouldn't get $$$ for a 1004D.


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