MV opinion vs a price estimate

[J Grant]

To paraphrase Santora from long ago, people don't care about the market value, they just want to know what it is worth. That can be defined 500 ways.

That is fine on the user or client end but does not change what the appraiser does wrt purpose of appraisal/opinion of market value.

What a property is worth can be defined 500 ways to anyone or everyone, but to a licensed appraiser, it is defined in the appraisal and in USPAP and in the stated purpose of the appraisal

 

[JeffSH]

Market value can't be actualized without a price. Market value is a price. Not all prices are market value. It's so simple!

 

[alebrewer]

Market value can't be actualized without a price. Market value is a price. Not all prices are market value. It's so simple!

You're wasting your time... I am the 'other people' who started her head spinning - and I doubt it's going to stop.

 

[alebrewer]

You know, J, if you're in the vast minority on your opinion(s), is it possible that it's you that may have the blinders on? Have you ever tried to look at this problem (or any other, for that matter) with an open mind that - perhaps - you might be looking at it incorrectly? An appraisal is, by definition, an opinion of the PRICE a property should sell for under all conditions requisite to a fair sale in an open and competitive market. Period. Yes - it's an opinion of market value - which is an opinion of PRICE. Price is the amount of money given in payment for something. That is what we are estimating. Not sure why you can't grasp this, but maybe you'll find someone, somewhere, who will agree with you. Best of luck with that.

 

[J Grant]

You know, J, if you're in the vast minority on your opinion(s), is it possible that it's you that may have the blinders on? Have you ever tried to look at this problem (or any other, for that matter) with an open mind that - perhaps - you might be looking at it incorrectly? An appraisal is, by definition, an opinion of the PRICE a property should sell for under all conditions requisite to a fair sale in an open and competitive market. Period. Yes - it's an opinion of market value - which is an opinion of PRICE. Price is the amount of money given in payment for something. That is what we are estimating. Not sure why you can't grasp this, but maybe you'll find someone, somewhere, who will agree with you. Best of luck with that.

If I am in the minority the field is in trouble - since I am either citing/pasting from USPAP or a printed MV definition or purpose of appraisal/opinion from the URAR we all use.
You guys are the ones saying a market value opinion is a price opinion or a price estimate !! Where is that found in USPAP? And what does price opinion mean if it is in USPAP -cite it please-

If an appraiser is going to opine a "price opinion" , in lieu of a MV opinion, shouldn't you state that a price opinion is the purpose of the appraisal ?

When we are discussing in this thread conceptual aspects or how price and value can align or differ then I am in sync with many of the posts on those issues.

 

[JeffSH]

since the only thing I am doing is pasting USPAP and quoting USPAP

USPAP is irrelevant. You never directly address the point, you just handwave and introduce red herrings. Refute this specifically (assuming the standard definition of market value).

Market value can't be actualized without a sale occurring. Market value is an opinion of the most probable sale price. Market value is a price. Not all prices are market value.

 

[alebrewer]

If I am in the minority the field is in trouble - since the only thing I am doing is pasting USPAP and quoting USPAP

you guys are teh ones turning the market value opinion into a price opinion or a price estimate !! Where is that in USPAP? And if you are going to opine a "price opinion" instead of a MV opinion, shouldn't you state that a price opinion is the purpose of the appraisal ?

When we all talk about conceptual aspects or how price and value can align or differ then I am in sync with many of the posts on those issues.

(a) MV is not the only definition of value that can be used in an appraisal - it is one of myriad, so to restrict the entirety of appraising to a single definition of value is absurd. (b) If you're so intent on copying and pasting, do you not see the word 'price' in the definition of market value? This - like most of your threads, J, is devolving into nonsense.

Price and value should ALWAYS align if the estimate of MV is accurate - and assuming the parties are acting in their own best interest, prudently and knowledgeably, in an open and competitive market with no undue stimulus, under all conditions requisite to a fair sale. How do you determine whether an appraisal was accurate or not? Is not one way of determining that to see what the property eventually sells for? I.e. the 'price' it brought? That's what got so many appraisers in trouble after the crash - their EMV did not line up with the eventual PRICE the property brought.

And I'm spent.

 

[J Grant]

USPAP is irrelevant. You never directly address the point, you just handwave and introduce red herrings. Refute this specifically (assuming the standard definition of market value).

Market value can't be actualized without a sale occurring. Market value is an opinion of the most probable sale price. Market value is a price. Not all prices are market value.

USPAP is irrelevant ? USPAP is our professional standards ! All I post is what exists in either USPAP, the MV definitions or statements on the URAR...

Is the above italics your thoughts ? They are valid thoughts but they are not what USPAP says -

Market value - there is no such animal as "market value " that we sign off on . We sign off on an opinion of market value .

Yes, in the MV definition (as defined ) MV is what a property should bring in a transaction- so it is a hypothetical "sale "- and we use comps that actually did sell - none of which turns a market value opinion into a price opinion. PLEASE show me the " A market value opinion is a price opinion " in USPAP. If it exists in USPAP I will eat crow and you can throw things at my cage lol

I don't think it exists in USPAP. I understand what you and others mean by it of course. But a market value opinion remains a market value opinion, expressed as the most probable price per the MV definition used. ( as defined )

 

[J Grant]

(a) MV is not the only definition of value that can be used in an appraisal - it is one of myriad, so to restrict the entirety of appraising to a single definition of value is absurd. (b) If you're so intent on copying and pasting, do you not see the word 'price' in the definition of market value? This - like most of your threads, J, is devolving into nonsense.

Price and value should ALWAYS align if the estimate of MV is accurate - and assuming the parties are acting in their own best interest, prudently and knowledgeably, in an open and competitive market with no undue stimulus, under all conditions requisite to a fair sale. How do you determine whether an appraisal was accurate or not? Is not one way of determining that to see what the property eventually sells for? I.e. the 'price' it brought? That's what got so many appraisers in trouble after the crash - their EMV did not line up with the eventual PRICE the property brought.

And I'm spent.

I will respond later, thanks for the post I am late with a report....eek

 

[JeffSH]

USPAP is irrelevant ? USPAP is our professional standards ! All I post is what exists in either USPAP, the MV definitions or statements on the URAR...

Is the above italics your thoughts ? They are valid thoughts but they are not what USPAP says -

Market value - there is no such animal as "market value " that we sign off on . We sign off on an opinion of market value .

Yes, in the MV definition (as defined ) MV is what a property should bring in a transaction- so it is a hypothetical "sale "- and we use comps that actually did sell - none of which turns a market value opinion into a price opinion. PLEASE show me the " A market value opinion is a price opinion " in USPAP. If it exists in USPAP I will eat crow and you can throw things at my cage lol

I don't think it exists in USPAP. I understand what you and others mean by it of course. But a market value opinion remains a market value opinion, expressed as the most probable price per the MV definition used. ( as defined )

USPAP is extremely basic because there are many different types of values and many different appraisal situations. Why would USPAP define value? This is called a red herring it's a debate tool that is used by people who can't address the actual point.