Stop Accepting Unreasonable Fees

[chad hampton]

This discussion is funny. People wouldn’t have spent even an ounce of effort into writing a customary and reasonable law if the end result would’ve been sending an order out to 100 appraisers and the cheapest one wins. What are we even talking about here?

Another in a long list of scufflaw in this profession

 

[J Grant]

This discussion is funny. People wouldn’t have spent even an ounce of effort into writing a customary and reasonable law if the end result would’ve been sending an order out to 100 appraisers and the cheapest one wins. What are we even talking about here?

Another in a long list of scufflaw in this profession

The original law about C and R was meant to curb assigning to the cheapest; then profiteers won by influencing regulators to add a second C and R provision allowing AMCs to use their own internal fees as C and R, and it was game over for appraisers.

The problem is not that this is illegal; the problem is that it is legal - legal does not equal just, fair, or beneficial. Lots of terrible things were legal at one time and then changed later to be illegal. When the regulators are able to be corrupted and influenced, the brakes are missing from the system.
I mean legal according to the law, not USPAP, for the clueless out there.

 

[TerryRohrer]

We are trying to point out how those minumums are being driven even lower, into an area that was not designed in USPAP to accommodate conforming standards where third-party profit drives the ceiosns, where the low rent churn and burn folks working for an AMC can use AI to generate a report, not even pick their own comps but sign like they did, never set foot in a local area, or set foot to isnepct the sub ject istelf....what could go wrong? (sarcasm )

Can you remind us where USPAP weighs in on whatever this gibberish is? I don't recall the section where USPAP discusses the level of appraisal fees, nor where it establishes any standards regarding fees (except to preclude contingent fees).

Maybe you should review the definition of "gaslighting", and then seek help.

 

[chad hampton]

The original law about C and R was meant to curb assigning to the cheapest; then profiteers won by influencing regulators to add a second C and R provision allowing AMCs to use their own internal fees as C and R, and it was game over for appraisers.

The problem is not that this is illegal; the problem is that it is legal - legal does not equal just, fair, or beneficial. Lots of terrible things were legal at one time and then changed later to be illegal. When the regulators are able to be corrupted and influenced, the brakes are missing from the system.
I mean legal according to the law, not USPAP, for the clueless out there.

That may be true, but to use that presumption fee isn’t the only criteria. If they were actually to follow that law, it would be so complicated and cumbersome that the other presumption would be the one they would end up using. Most of the issues with this profession are from lack of enforcement. All by design through lobbying and threats.

 

[J Grant]

Can you remind us where USPAP weighs in on whatever this gibberish is? I don't recall the section where USPAP discusses the level of appraisal fees, nor where it establishes any standards regarding fees (except to preclude contingent fees).

Maybe you should review the definition of "gaslighting", and then seek help.

I never once said fees are part of USPAP. In your zeal to find something negative to post about me, you overlook that. The things I mentioned in your snipped are about not inspecting a property, etc., that they are a result of exploiting the low standards of USPAP. The fact that I mentioned ti can result in a low-rent choice of appraiser did not attribute fees to USPAP.'
'
Coffee is a great cure for being grumpy btw.

 

[George Hatch]

There is no need to do this in every single thread-( we perfectly well understand the existing minimums from a lender's perspective. Do you think we are stupid? We are trying to point out how those minumums are being driven even lower, into an area that was not designed in USPAP to accommodate conforming standards where third-party profit drives the ceiosns, where the low rent churn and burn folks working for an AMC can use AI to generate a report, not even pick their own comps but sign like they did, never set foot in a local area, or set foot to isnepct the sub ject istelf....what could go wrong? (sarcasm )


I just found the gaslighting comment! There is always one in these defending the lowest as the norm posts. That's how supply/demand works.

How can you call yourself an appraiser and yet fail to understand, or pretend to not understand (pick one ), that the lender and then the AMC system is not normal free market supply and demand? The borrower is not free to select the appraiser in regulated lender work. And I am not arguing that they should. However, in the rest of the business world of supply and demand, the customer gets to pick the professional service provider. Taht is true in commercial appraisal and private order appraisals as we.. In reg lending work, it goes further 0- the loan officer is not allowed to select the appraiser - so a very limited, very narrow channel of AMC;s, then narrow it to the smaller group of bigger AMCs that have the demand side ( 80% of res lender volume ), which gives them tremendous leverage over fees. And the AMC split is hidden from the borrower thanks to the HUD bundled fee. And the AMC has a profit-driven motive to choose the lowest fee. So explain to us then how, in any way, shape, or form, that resembles normal free market supply and demand for professional service providers.

Stop being dumb. You are incapable of forming a line of reasoning that the avg person can't understand. We don't disagree with each other because U-so-deep. We disagree because you're oriented to "what should be" and I'm working on being oriented to "what is".

The lenders ARE the customer in this business. Same on my side of the business. These borrowers are 3rd parties who are not involved in the lender's due diligence. Except for fair lending laws it's otherwise almost none of their business how the lenders work their internal decision making. You know all this, so there's no point in postulating otherwise in "what should be".

As for being an appraiser, if/when I can deliver "what is" bad news to my own clients with the idea that it's in their own best interests to operate off an informed decision then there's no reason for me to treat my peers any differently. I'm perfectly capable of TELLING you whatever you want to hear but saying so doesn't make it so. If anyone is demoralized over the current state of affairs then it's not because I am commenting on it, but because the current state of affairs for appraisers actually is grim. And will most likely continue to get worse as we go. If we're being honest about it, appraisers probably SHOULD be demoralized. Just noting the obvious doesn't make me some villain.

As for supply/demand, you can't say the AMCs engage the majority of the assignments in the market in one breath and then deny that their competition with each other functions off supply/demand in the next. I don't LIKE how the feds gutted the C&R elements but my feelz on the subject are immaterial to that fact - it happened anyway.

 

[Surf Cat]

Can you remind us where USPAP weighs in on whatever this gibberish is? I don't recall the section where USPAP discusses the level of appraisal fees, nor where it establishes any standards regarding fees (except to preclude contingent fees).

The main frustration (for residential AMC appraisers) is widely shared and well documented.....the underlying issue is a fee, turnaround, AND value pressure model built into how AMCs operate, which completely conflicts with the time and diligence USPAP requires. As well as pressure to hit a needed value....

USPAP doesn't have a timer running. However, it states that an appraiser must spend enough time to gather, verify, and analyze all data necessary to produce a credible result.

Lenders and AMCs are "supposed to" maintain written policies for USPAP compliance. However, very much like boilerplate in an AMC appraisal, USPAP compliance gibberish is in their engagement letters....but they don't follow it. Rules for thee and not for me mentality.

Being a CG, you're not in the world of sh*t res appraisers deal with from this unethical AMC club.... you just want to argue about technicalities in USPAP.

 

[George Hatch]

Quality+Service+Price. The triangle of commerce.

The demands for each always increase when times are lean and decrease when times are fat. The demand for services is down and the possibility exists that it will get worse for the foreseeable future.

This transition to the 3.6 could not have come at a more favorable time for the lenders and AMCs than if they had engineered for it. Volumes are down and their leverage is higher than ever. It's not fair, but "fair" isn't part of the equation.

 

[Surf Cat]

As for being an appraiser, if/when I can deliver "what is" bad news to my own clients with the idea that it's in their own best interests to operate off an informed decision

That'll get you an ROV, and/or dropped from the roaster.....you'd better make it work to keep accruing assignments in AMC land....

 

[TerryRohrer]

Being a CG, you're not in the world of sh*t res appraisers deal with from this unethical AMC club.... you just want to argue about technicalities in USPAP.

I'm pretty sure I have seen both you and Grant crow about not dealing with AMCs for years, yet here you are schooling everyone on what the issues are in dealing with AMCs. As for your comment about my not understanding residential appraisal because of my license level (a charge Grant makes as well), it is ignorant, stupid, uniformed, and without any basis whatsoever. I expect I have dealt with far more AMCs than you, in both residential and non-residential assignments, in a far more difficult environment and in far more varied markets. And I have understood where USPAP mattered in all cases. But, please, explain to me all about those things that you don't deal with, that I do. These pages need more unfounded bull**** than is currently being spread and Grant is getting old and prone to complete nonsense.