2nd illegal kitchen

[Abester]

Well, Mike, I know I'm off the mark with the OP since the construction didn't follow the permit. I'm saying when I built my houses, the only thing they asked for was number of bedrooms and baths so they could tell me how big the septic had to be. That's reasonable. But, if I decide to put a canning kitchen in one of those bedrooms, that's still my right, and I don't have to ask permission. That is the way it should be, dag nab IT!

 

[Joyce Potts]

There are two ways to address this: 1) the strict legal way and/or 2) the practical way. Some illegal 2nd kitchens are grandfathered in. But I would advise the client first and have them give you what they prefer--as long as you're able to make it USPAP compliant by way of hypothetical conditions or extraordinary assumptions.

Some will throw the monkey back on you because they're clueless and want to make the decisions and incur the liability, and in those situations I err on the side of caution to avoid any foreseeble loss to my client OR MYSELF. Either do it with the cost to cure, mark it and FULLY EXPLAIN AND DISCLOSE that it's legal non-conforming if it's grandfathered or make it subject to removing the kitchen with the later usually putting everyone in a tail spin.

At the very least, it's entertaining to watch.

 

[Mike Kennedy]

Maybe in Certain Parts of Florida. Dagnabbit:icon_mrgreen:

 

[Webbed Feet]

<...snip....>

You suggest I do more research and ask the right people the right questions. Can you point me in the right direction?

The client is a direct lender and the intended use is for a refinance of the current conventional mortgage.

The "right" people would be the jurisdictional authority. The permit and planning departments of the J.A. ..... But first, you renegociate the SOW with the client while advising them what research you must do for each different senario regarding SOW. If they don't want the research done, and no satisfactory SOW using credible HCs or EAs can be determined.. it's game over ... you have to decline the assignment completion.

 

[Webbed Feet]

There are two ways to address this: 1) the strict legal way and/or 2) the practical way. Some illegal 2nd kitchens are grandfathered in. But I would advise the client first and have them give you what they prefer--as long as you're able to make it USPAP compliant by way of hypothetical conditions or extraordinary assumptions.

Some will throw the monkey back on you because they're clueless and want to make the decisions and incur the liability, and in those situations I err on the side of caution to avoid any foreseeble loss to my client OR MYSELF. Either do it with the cost to cure, mark it and FULLY EXPLAIN AND DISCLOSE that it's legal non-conforming if it's grandfathered or make it subject to removing the kitchen with the later usually putting everyone in a tail spin.

At the very least, it's entertaining to watch.

Considering the O.P. stated this is a brand new second kitchen just put in, I don't think we have to consider the grandfathering bit very much.

In the good ol days, when lenders were lenders instead of welfare queens, the answer was to either require the decommissioning of the illegal kitchen or require the property owner show proof they obtained permits, final inspections, and occupancy certificates. Which of course they can't do. The main reason it was one or the other, is lenders must require hazard insurance. That's a ***** to do and explain later when they are faced with an appraiser's report showing the second kitchen is not allowed under current zoning and as such, the hazard insurance could be invalidated as a result of the permit violations.

P.S. It's a bit hard to confirm "grandfathernig" and legal non-conforming without seeking a determination from the J.A. regarding that.

 

[Webbed Feet]

Well, Mike, I know I'm off the mark with the OP since the construction didn't follow the permit. I'm saying when I built my houses, the only thing they asked for was number of bedrooms and baths so they could tell me how big the septic had to be. That's reasonable. But, if I decide to put a canning kitchen in one of those bedrooms, that's still my right, and I don't have to ask permission. That is the way it should be, dag nab IT!

You're absolutely right! And it is absolutly your right to never be able to obtain a loan everytime the lender finds out you failed to get permits and there were never any J.A. safety / code inspections... But heck, it's a free country. Burn your stupid house down and kill your kids in the next bedroom because no proper firewall for a kitchen was ever installed. Then later find out your fire insurance was also invalidated..... All that is your right dag nab it!

 

[Joyce Potts]

Considering the O.P. stated this is a brand new second kitchen just put in, I don't think we have to consider the grandfathering bit very much.

In the good ol days, when lenders were lenders instead of welfare queens, the answer was to either require the decommissioning of the illegal kitchen or require the property owner show proof they obtained permits, final inspections, and occupancy certificates. Which of course they can't do. The main reason it was one or the other, is lenders must require hazard insurance. That's a ***** to do and explain later when they are faced with an appraiser's report showing the second kitchen is not allowed under current zoning and as such, the hazard insurance could be invalidated as a result of the permit violations.

P.S. It's a bit hard to confirm "grandfathernig" and legal non-conforming without seeking a determination from the J.A. regarding that.

You're obviously not married to a builder. Owners will often put in 2nd kitchens in all the time AFTER the final inspection. Get real. While I continue to say that the old rules don't apply anymore, the old rule of obtaining forgiveness is far easier than obtaining permission still applies in my market.

For that matter, when it comes to in-law additions, the zoning departments generally have far bigger fish to fry and have limited tax dollar resources these days to send out their second kitchen, permit compliance police. That said, any appraiser needs to make sure they fully and thoroughly disclose that second kitchen and how and why they chose to handle it the way they did. Put your client and all intended users on notice making it less likely anything will come back to bite you in the butt.

 

[Abester]

You're absolutely right! And it is absolutly your right to never be able to obtain a loan everytime the lender finds out you failed to get permits and there were never any J.A. safety / code inspections... But heck, it's a free country. Burn your stupid house down and kill your kids in the next bedroom because no proper firewall for a kitchen was ever installed. Then later find out your fire insurance was also invalidated..... All that is your right dag nab it!

How did this citizens of this country ever get by without these requirements for the bulk of the dwellings for its first 200 years? They must have all died horrible house related deaths...

 

[Abester]

My position is similar to that of the Amish.

 

[Abester]

Permits are not about safety. Their purpose is raise money under the heading of "protecting the children".