ANSI confusion...

[Overimprovement]

So the ANSI standard states "staircases are included in the GLA of the floor from which they descend."

Looking for example at a two story colonial with no basement, here are my issues:

A) this doesn't make much practical sense, but more importantly,
B) does this mean they are NOT counted on the floor TO which they descend, ie the main floor? And if this is true, then would not ALL main floor measurements be off? We measure exterior perimeter, so staircases are automatically included in that, as is everything else, right? Would every sketch then show a 'hole' in the main living area where the staircase is?
C) if they do still count on the main floor, why would anyone want to double count staircase area?

Has anyone seen clarification on these issues from a reliable source?

 

[TerryRohrer]

So the ANSI standard states "staircases are included in the GLA of the floor from which they descend."

Looking for example at a two story colonial with no basement, here are my issues:

A) this doesn't make much practical sense, but more importantly,
B) does this mean they are NOT counted on the floor TO which they descend, ie the main floor? And if this is true, then would not ALL main floor measurements be off? We measure exterior perimeter, so staircases are automatically included in that, as is everything else, right? Would every sketch then show a 'hole' in the main living area where the staircase is?
C) if they do still count on the main floor, why would anyone want to double count staircase area?

Has anyone seen clarification on these issues from a reliable source?

Picture the stairs with a hinge at the top. Fold the staircase up to fill the hole in the upper floor, then measure both floors. You now have GLA.

 

[RCA]

So the ANSI standard states "staircases are included in the GLA of the floor from which they descend."

Looking for example at a two story colonial with no basement, here are my issues:

A) this doesn't make much practical sense, but more importantly,
B) does this mean they are NOT counted on the floor TO which they descend, ie the main floor? And if this is true, then would not ALL main floor measurements be off? We measure exterior perimeter, so staircases are automatically included in that, as is everything else, right? Would every sketch then show a 'hole' in the main living area where the staircase is?
C) if they do still count on the main floor, why would anyone want to double count staircase area?

Has anyone seen clarification on these issues from a reliable source?

The area of the staircase is counted as part of the GLA of the floor it descends from, but 100% of the area under an OPEN staircase counts for the area on the floor it descends to, regardless of height. If the staircase is closed underneath, then it likely has a closet or room of some type such as a half-bath. That room finished area would be included with that of the floor it is on, with the ANSI height restrictions - so some space would disappear. That's what the ANSI standard says.

Problem:

The floor descending to a basement presents a contradiction, because ANSI says that the stair descending to the basement is part of the main floor's above grade finished area and FNMA says only completely above grade finished can be counted as GLA. The stair descending to the basement is below grade in this case. - If you have an open spiral staircase descending from the second floor down to a basement, you are going to get more finished area for the main floor than it deserves, if you give preference to ANSI for FNMA, but if you give preference to FNMA over ANSI, you will violate ANSI and thus you will violate FNMA's new ruling. A contradiction that you cannot avoid.

I suppose we are getting into a semantics problem - which occurs with poor standards that don't accurately define their terms. ANSI is not a perfect standard. FNMA is not perfect. Put the two together and you get a headache.

 

[Terrel L. Shields]

You count the space under the stairwell on the lower floor. We've always done that here.

 

[RCA]

You count the space under the stairwell on the lower floor. We've always done that here.

Well, we are talking about the ANSI standard. If the space under the stairwell is closed off and made into a closet or bathroom, then the 7-5' high requirements take force - and some of that space will be discarded - most likely the space behind the rear wall of said room.

But, ANSI/FNMA has this predicament with the basement, where they are apparently contradicting themselves through obfuscated semantics, saying at the same time the stair descending into the basement is both above grade and below grade. You can't have it both ways. Naturally, in the flow of things, what they mean to say is that the stairs descending into a basement is to be treated as an exception to their definition of "below grade". The stair descending into the basement is to be treated as above grade, even though it is below grade. So it is both above grade and below grade, although of course it really is only below grade. ANSI wants the stairs treated as above grade and its credit is clear and unequivocal in that regard. FNMA screwed up and didn't provide a clear statement on the issue. FNMA screws up a lot.

ANSI starts with the top floor and works down. In the case that all staircases are open underneath, it works out just fine, - well as long as you can live the the concept that the area of the stairs descending into a completely below grade basement is to be treated as part of the finished living area of the above grade main floor. Essentially, I find that quite acceptable and not a problem.

FNMA needs to meditate on this issue for a while.

 

[DWiley]

If the space under the stairwell is closed off and made into a closet or bathroom, then the 7-5' high requirements take force - and some of that space will be discarded -

I am certainly not claiming any ANSI expertise, but I do not think this is correct. See ANSI Z765-2021, Section 3.7 - It notes that there is no ceiling height requirement for area under stairs.

 

[Overimprovement]

Picture the stairs with a hinge at the top. Fold the staircase up to fill the hole in the upper floor, then measure both floors. You now have GLA.

But that is not what the standard states.

 

[TerryRohrer]

But that is not what the standard states.

That is what you posted above indicates. The staircase is part of the GLA of the level from which it descends. The x-y plane occupied by the staircase is identical to the hole above. Unless there is another staircase immediately below, then there is a floor on the first level. That floor is part of the GLA of the first floor. If the outer perimeter of each level is identical, and there are no other openings in the upper level, then the two levels would have identical amounts of GLA.

 

[Overimprovement]

OK, so it seems the consensus is the main level GLA does not change, even if the space below the ascending staircase is not usable. That in itself is fine, there are lots of unusable areas in the ANSI standard--like the space between drywall and the exterior finish covering--and that is all around the house and can be 100 sqft or more. But it is still double counting the actual footprint of the staircase itself. I have never once seen an MLS entry OR county auditor sketch where it appears this staircase area is being added to GLA. So every single comp with more than one story will have a lower GLA than what the ANSI standard would prescribe. And we will have to try to determine that for every comp we use, whether they actually included it or not.

<*considers fee schedule changes for cape cods starting April 1*>

 

[RCA]

I am certainly not claiming any ANSI expertise, but I do not think this is correct. See ANSI Z765-2021, Section 3.7 - It notes that there is no ceiling height requirement for area under stairs.

Ha. Well read that carefully. It is a mess. It is not even proper English.

Using Semicolons

Semicolons help you connect closely related ideas when a style mark stronger than a comma is needed. By using semicolons effectively, you can make your writing sound more sophisticated. Rules for Using Semicolons A semicolon is most commonly used to link (in a single sentence) two independent...

writing.wisc.edu

Notice as well in using semicolons, all parts separated by the semicolon are equally important, there is no implicit order.

In any case, semicolons are meant to separate independent clauses that are closely related. If you take that clause out of the sentence, it should still have clear meaning on it's own.

So:

"; under stairs where there is no specific height requirement;"

This, standing alone is: "Under stairs where there is no specific height requirement."

WTF does that mean?

It is a broken sentence fragment which possibly means:

" or, under stairs where there is no specific height requirement, "

Then the next sentence fragment is just as bad and perhaps means:"

" or, where the ceiling is sloped."

But, that implicit statement, as a whole, then contradicts the following sentence:

"If a rooms ceiling is sloped, at least one-half of the finished square footage in that room must have a vertical ceiling height of at least 7 ft; no portion of the finished area that has a height of less than 5 ft may be included in finished square footage."

Section 3.7 is an excellent example of poor standards writing and foggy thinking. What a mess, - I repeat.

So, if we have a stair that is completely open below, per ANSI we don't have a contradiction and all the area is counted as finished area for that room. However, if we have an enclosed room below the stairs, we are in no man's land.

You can't have it both ways.

It is not that easy to write a good standard. Try to find someone who can write a good standard - and you are going to be talking to an engineer caliber professional.