Appraisalport poll on national appraiser's union

[Bob Ipock]

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[Bob Ipock]

It is totally relevant, especially to John Q Public who is spending their hard earned money and it has a bearing on how much the appraisal cost them. I don't plan on doing one for $175, but if I do, I'll be sure and not tell John Q Public (the borrower) because that would be a No!..No!. I'm not sure why that is a No!..No!, but I won't tell them for sure. What happened to disclose, disclose, disclose?

For the 101 th time...the borrower knows UP FRONT what the appraisal fee will be....and either agrees or walks away. 99% of the borrowers will gladly pay the appraisal process fee charged by the lender because they want the loan. They don't ask or care how that fee is divided....and....is none of their business. The LENDER sets the fee and a re NOT required to break it down.

It is like a man in bed with a woman. He has little or no concern about costs or future cost. He is caught up in the moment....just like a borrower.

 

[Bob Ipock]

You think a appraisal union will have influence in Washington arguing against banks and Realtors? You are dreaming.

Yes....this forum has many dreamers.

 

[Bob Ipock]

You're an employee of a company that operates a physical facility that functions as your worksite. Fee appraisers are not employees and they don't work at the client's facility.

If your union votes to strike they can erect a picket line and require their members not cross that line to work, and to discourage the other vendors and customers not cross that line to do business. That picket line is their primary mode of enforcing solidarity on their members because without it they have no way of even knowing who crosses.

Unless your union functions as the clients' sole AMC to control the workflow they won't be able to enforce a picket line and their members will retain the ability to cut the side deal and keep the income flowing.

That's assuming you could legally force any of these lenders to close their accept lists to only do business with your union members and not do business with any non-union members.

INDEPENDENT appraisers are similar to an independent owner/operator truck driver. They are not employees of a trucking company. The Teamsters put under many trucking companies over the years and don't have near the clout of yesteryear and have a decline membership.

I don't know? What group of independent workers has a nationwide union?

 

[Deleted member 128537]

Even though I am for it the likelihood of a union, PAC, or association like the NAR with a majority of appraisers is about as likely as a snowstorm at the equator. The reason is because we don't have one strong voice to lead the way. One thing about realtors is that they have meetings at the local level. They have to work together to make a living. Appraisers not so much. With on line education we don't even see each other at CE.

The other problem is the numbers game. In my county there are 4 or 5 appraisers, and there are probably 200 realtors. No one will listen to us because our numbers just aren't big enough to have much impact.

That's why these appraisal associations should start looking at developing local associations that actually do something other than taking your fees and charging too much for CE.

I would gladly join an association if I actually saw some benefit. As of now there is none unless you want to get a designation to put on your resume. But even then I can't remember one time when someone called me for work and asked if I had a designation.

 

[Corbyn Reece]

We could sure use a unified voice, union or otherwise. A PAC would be dwarfed by PACs of lenders and other interests against us. Those that say appraisers are their own enemy are right, but I can't see us ever helping ourselves to better fees unless and until our numbers drop precipitously.

Simple example: An area has 1,000 appraisal orders by lenders in a month. 20% are captured by professional appraisers for full fee, 80% are accepted below C & R. If those capturing the full fee get fewer orders than their capacity, they in a sense make out as bad as the other 80% that may get less fee but more orders. The 80% are not going to try to move into the 20% bracket because of fear that increasing fees will lose them orders (probably a true fear). The cycle will continue, no matter how many of us shout "do not settle for low fees".

Unless and until demand meets supply, I don't know what the answer is. Union would probably be a good thing overall, but I can't see it happening. Personally, I bust my behind and have 90% full fee clients and am at perhaps 80% of capacity right now, so I'm not doing bad, but I would like to see those low-ball appraisal payers have to pay C & R. If half of my 90% dropped their fees what would I supposed to do - drop them out of principle? I don't know. I like to think they are paying full fee because their appraisal panel provides their clients with good work. It's just that the current oligopoly / not free market has my concern and I have some empathy for those that do accept some orders for a little below C & R.

 

[Eli]

For the 101 th time...the borrower knows UP FRONT what the appraisal fee will be....and either agrees or walks away. 99% of the borrowers will gladly pay the appraisal process fee charged by the lender because they want the loan. They don't ask or care how that fee is divided....and....is none of their business. The LENDER sets the fee and a re NOT required to break it down.

It is like a man in bed with a woman. He has little or no concern about costs or future cost. He is caught up in the moment....just like a borrower.

Get out of the bed before you get in trouble and picture these two scenarios:

Scenario A, Lender A
AMC orders appraisal
Fee=$550
Independent appr $175
Appraisal managment fee $375
Appraisal takes 7 day turn time due to AMC stips although
not needed. Appraisal was quality USPAP compliant when uploaded
from independent appraiser.

Scenario B, Lender B
Bank or mortgage orders appraisal from independent appraiser
Independent appraiser fee $450
Appraisal takes 5 day turn time, quality work. no stips

Now assume these are two different purchase transactions, different lenders but same realtor, same closing atty, same market.

Realtor and borrower go to closing and these fees are clearly disclosed on the loan disclosures.

Scenario A
Realtor comments in front of borrower, closing attorney how appraisal management fee is a fee they haven't seen before. seems high but appraisal seems cheap. closing atty, borrower agree.

Scenario B
Realtor comments in front of borrower, closing attorney how there is no appraisal managment fee like the one they did previously (scenario A). appraisal fee higher but reasonable, good appraisal, good turn time. Realtor upset because overall appraisal costs higher. closing atty agrees.

Summary

Scenario A
Higher appraisal costs (appraisal mgmt fee + appraisal fee), longer turn time

Scenario B
Lower appraisal cost, faster turn time, good appraisal (appraiser went above and beyond normal scope of work since they were receiving a reasonable fee)

Longterm scenario: Realtor, closing attorney, borrower recommend lender B over lender A since closing atty can use savings in transaction to pay somebody else in transaction that needs the money (i.e. seller, buyer, RE agent, closing atty). Lender A fires AMC and hires appraiser direct at reasonable fee.

We have no significant voice in Washington as independent appraisers! I think that is what is being said over and over and over... Results are pretty convincing so far on the appraisalport poll.

 

[George Hatch]

IMO this forum and others like it are tools we have used to great effect to convey our priorities and the rationale - both between ourselves as well as with various levels of government and other media.

A news outlet cannot run an article involving appraisal issues without attracting 20 responses from appraisers in their reader feedback comments. Even the politicians are unable to ignore and are compelled to respond to the hue and cry appraisers raise in the various internet-related outlets, not to mention the individual correspondence appraisers engage in as a result of their awareness of these events.

We don't have the money to buy our politicians the good old fashioned way, which is why I truly question the value of paid political lobbyists for our interests. We certainly don't have the economic resources to competitively outbribe any of our opposition, let alone all of them. Even if you could ever force every single appraiser into line, there's no amount of money 100,000 appraisers could ever have raised that would have purchased a different application of the HVCC than what we got. And that's just one example.

We are engaged in an asymmetric conflict. That renders obsolete any attempts to mount our own shock and awe strategy in counterpoint to the better funded bankers and loan originators and RE brokers whose interests lie in advocating for the deal at all costs. We don't have the resources to wage a tank battle on an open field and trade volleys with our opposition. We need to flank their front lines and cut their supply chain and put them on the defensive.

What we do have going for us and what we have been leveraging to great effect is the simple common sense that supports our legitimate interests. The truth is an easy sell - it takes money to dress BS as something other than BS and successfully sell that.


IMO we'll do better in the long run by leveraging these strengths - one of those being our sincere concern for what's best for the public even if it's not quite as profitable for us. The truth and some common sense are an easy sell, and we can improve both the frequency and effectiveness of the manner in which we sell it.

 

[Eli]

I agree with most of what you said George. I really don't think politicians should be bought and I hope they can't be as I'm sure you do. I've read enough of your posts to believe that you are a huge asset to our profession. Your posts show your integrity. I wish we had the skilled lobbyist that cost a lot of money to help our leverage you talked about. I agree with you on the truth being an easy sell, but I also believe a skilled lobbyist against us might make a policy maker believe a lie or convince them the truth is a bad idea. I hope money is not really the key. I would like to think it's the lobbying of the truth that the money buys that is the key. I hope you are right about the news we generate in general helping, but I'm not convinced, although things have gotten a little better recently on fees. However I'm not sure more unneccessary scope of work hasn't eaten that up so we may be no better off yet. I like your optimism though. You are a ray of sunshine. We need a lobbyist like you!