Appraiser didn't measure during interior inspection

[Terrel L. Shields]

what to do???

laff at your peers who are chopping wood with a scapel....

If you say you measured personally, then you should. If you don't say how you measured...is it a violation of USPAP? I would suggest only if subsequent investigation proved that your figure was significantly wrong....you didn't do enough "due diligence".

What do your peers do? Donno. But probably in a secondary residential appraisal they measure personally. In commercial and ag property...a higher percentage will rely upon assessor measurements and/or a mix of owner statement and personal measurement.

The fact I was there does not require me to (by USPAP) measure anything, nor does it require me to photograph anything, in or out, nor to walk out the entire site (try that on a 1,100 farm in the Ozarks.)

It is the quality of the measurements of the comparable sales that determines the needed quality of the measurements of the subject when doing an appraisal.

I prefer to think of it as the PRECISION of the subject measurement should relate to the ACCURACY of the comparables measurements. I have seen assessor measurements that are several feet difference from identical models or mirror image models built by the same builder. They are built and sold as X number of SF. For me to go to a model match, measure some obscure difference (say 50 SF) under the mistaken belief that measuring to the tenth of a foot is more accurate and make an adjustment thereof is not credible.

 

[PropertyEconomics]

I can certainly tell the difference between 2600SF and 3200SF, IN MY MARKET.

Just because a person uses data from the public records does not mean that person is lazy. It means they consider all data available to them. I have never suggested an appraiser NOT measure a property. What I am suggesting is if there is a small difference between what is of public record and my measurement, I defer to the public record. I measure to the nearest 1/2 foot.

Seems Economics has a problem with everyone on this forum. I resent you calling me lazy, you don't know me and have never worked with me. For the record, I get a copy of the sketch from the assessor's office. I make copies of it and print in on the back of my inspection form. I then pull a tape to confirm their measurements.

I am not a draftsman. Measuring to 1/10 is well beyond that which is expected by my clients and that which my peers would do in a similar assignment. The sketch is used to help the client visualize the improvement. Measurements are approximate and round may occur.

I dont have a problem with you sir. I simply asked if you measured the property or took the words of someone you dont know as to the measurements of a property. I dont think I specifically called you lazy .. I said those that did not measure were lazy and I continue to think so.
How can an appraiser sign their name to something they dont know is true?
I have read posts on this forum where appraisers measure to the nearest half foot. Were an assessor to do that would it be accurate and reflect the true square footage of a home? While it may be customary in any given area .. the question remains is it accurate ... or just accurate enough?
My experiences are quite different than most here because property records are not public record and I do not have access to them. And I will say even if I did .. how could I rely on them over what my own eyes will tell me if I measure?

 

[Lobo Fan]

Field measurements are often slightly larger than builder's numbers. GLA on a blue print is figured from the center line of the walls. An exterior measurement includes the entire wall. So if it is 2 x 6 construction you could have 1-3 extra inches on every measurement. That could make a minor difference.

Where it gets interesting is on adobe or staw bale houses where the walls can be very thick. ANSI says outside measurements, but a two foot thick wall can cut into the GLA by a big number.

 

[Mr Rex]

I prefer to think of it as the PRECISION of the subject measurement should relate to the ACCURACY of the comparables measurements. I have seen assessor measurements that are several feet difference from identical models or mirror image models built by the same builder. They are built and sold as X number of SF. For me to go to a model match, measure some obscure difference (say 50 SF) under the mistaken belief that measuring to the tenth of a foot is more accurate and make an adjustment thereof is not credible.

I agree with Terrel, although I measure and draw to 1/10th, because I come from a building mindset of measure twice, cut once, I don't adjust for minimal differences in sf. I also recognize that in a 1000sf house, 50sf might be significant enough to adjust for, in a 3000sf house, >100sf might be the point that it becomes "significant" etc. There is enough fluff in the way comp GLA is reported that small differences become statistical noise.

 

[Terrel L. Shields]

How can an appraiser sign their name to something they dont know is true?

Our whole report is a reflection of that. We caveat a lot of things we don't know is true. We may think that it is true or not true but we don't know it for certain. Flood maps close? Do we KNOW that it cannot flood? Is the heat and air REALLY "average"? What if it conks out tomorrow? Just because we didn't see a termite doesn't mean it wasn't there, right? Roof leak? Was it raining? Fireplace really safe? on and on. So. What if you measure wrong?

but a two foot thick wall can cut into the GLA by a big number.

shouldn't change at all... but the net usable interior space is smaller. "GLA" is defined from the exterior.

 

[PropertyEconomics]

Our whole report is a reflection of that. We caveat a lot of things we don't know is true. We may think that it is true or not true but we don't know it for certain. Flood maps close? Do we KNOW that it cannot flood? Is the heat and air REALLY "average"? What if it conks out tomorrow? Just because we didn't see a termite doesn't mean it wasn't there, right? Roof leak? Was it raining? Fireplace really safe? on and on. So. What if you measure wrong?

Terrel .. I certainly dont disagree with you but I do think that measurement of a structure is something we should do and something we should know. Its one of the basis for selection of comparable properties. If we measure wrong then its on us isnt it .. what if the assessor measured wrong and we have simply taken their word for it? Do you think that would stand up were we to be sued for gross mis-statement of size?

 

[Stephen J. Vertin MAI]

Oh my lord not this again

 

[Mike Garrett RAA]

And then there are those damn disto's! I shake too bad to hold one steady enough for an accurate measurement! LOL. Also my fiberglass tape does stretch...but just a bit. The old metal one gets rusty and cuts my fingers.

Lets all agree that we agree on what should be done. Just for the record, I will use the 1568SF number in the appraisal report. Why? Because some smart ***-ed underwriter will pull the public record and then tell me my measurements are wrong.

 

[PropertyEconomics]

And then there are those damn disto's! I shake too bad to hold one steady enough for an accurate measurement! LOL. Also my fiberglass tape does stretch...but just a bit. The old metal one gets rusty and cuts my fingers.

Lets all agree that we agree on what should be done. Just for the record, I will use the 1568SF number in the appraisal report. Why? Because some smart ***-ed underwriter will pull the public record and then tell me my measurements are wrong.

Mike I am not picking on you .. simply asking a question. Using a number you know to be incorrect ... is that not preparing a report that is misleading? The degree of misleading isnt the issue in my mind ... just the simple fact that your actual measurements show something different is where my question comes from.
I respect your opinions a great deal, and honestly, since my market does not have the public record issue to deal with, my perspective is much different than yours.

 

[Chuck Melton]

....
It is the quality of the measurements of the comparable sales that determines the needed quality of the measurements of the subject when doing an appraisal. Suppose you measure the subject an find it is 2326 sqft, but public records indicate 2500 sqft. You have 6 model match sales by the same builder, similar lots, classic cookie cutter houses. Every record you find for the comparable sales says 2500 sqft. Has measuring the house added anything to the cedibility of the opinon of value? Would it be most prudent to:

1. use the measured value for the subject and all comparable sales,
2. use the measured value for the subject and public records for the comparable sales,
3. use the public records for the subject and all comparable sales?

Now add a sale in the same neighborhood by the same builder with one less bedroom and public records indicating a size of 2350.
.../

I would indicate 2326 for the subject and all comps in the subject neighborhood that show the same floor plan as the subject, disclose the discrepancy, disclose why I modified the comps GLA figures and write an EA/LC to cover my back-side if it turns out I am wrong.

Relative to the comp with one bedrooms less, it could be that it actually is 2350, with the area from one of the bedrooms used for something else. I would try to determine one way or the other the likelihood of accuracy vs. an actual discrepancy similar to that affecting the subject. I I can't determine for sure, then I go with PR... and I disclose that too.

...
Is in not obvious that the measurement of the subject, although nice information, is irrelevant to the appraisal?
...

WHAT???!!:Eyecrazy: you need to come back to Florida... The slightly drier air up there is causing your brain to chap, I think.

...
If solid numbers were known for the comparable sales, would not the relevance of the measurement of the subject property to the appraisal process be increased?

In either case I would want to have measured and explained any significant discrepancy in my report between the public records and my measurements. Measuring is a good thing to do, but certainly not a necessity IMHO.

The purpose of measuring, IM<STRONG>O is not to simply note the discrepancy relevant to public records. Just because we are forced to deal with a certain level of inaccuracy in the comparable data is no reason to throw your hands up and simply say it doesn't matter to what you're doing. You are completely missing the point.

If you have two mating parts of a machine, the more slop, or tolerance you alow in each part increases the chance that it will not work properly. If you can't get both parts made perfectly to size, then getting one part right will decrease the number of failures you have. Its the same principle with information based comparisons; less inaccuracy, even if just on one side of the information being compared, makes for a more reliable analyiss, and one that the Client can have more confidence in.

BTW, for most homes around here, if public records is wrong, it will typically be on the low side, because if it's high, homeowners will straighten out the County appraiser yesterday in order to keep their assessment down. If it's the other way around, the homeowner will take that little secret only to his grave.... or the Realtor he lists the house with