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Are we required to obtain permits?

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"Pulling" permits

By the way, I don't know of any appraiser ever "Pulling" a permit. "Pull" generally = "Obtain" where I am from. Contractors and property owners "Pull" permits, appraisers would only look to see if permits were obtained or not. Oh, and IF I look, I look to see if the permit ever resulted in a "final" inspection or was completely satisfied or not while I am at it.
 
Most of the local code enforcement offices here archive permit info after 5 years. They have yet to create a computerized database of current permits, much less those from 5,10,20+ years ago.
 
In the various jurisdictions, the matter of whether or not (for example) a basement was finished with a permit (or, not) or whether the attic was finished with a permit--or not-- are matters of great significance--or not.

Know your market. Know what the market (which includes governmental agencies) gives value to (or not).

Don't make a mountain out of a molehill.
 
http://www.amlegal.com/nxt/gateway.dll/Illinois/chicagobuilding/buildingcodeandrelatedexcerptsofthemunic?f=templates$fn=default.htm$3.0$vid=amlegal:chicagobuilding_il

MAYOR'S MESSAGE

In 1875, only four years after the Great Fire, the city of Chicago became a pioneer in the field of building regulations by establishing one of the nation's first building codes. We then enacted the first electrical code in 1883.
In 1975, Chicago again led the nation in the adoption of the first major city High-Rise Code, a collection of requirements to enhance occupancy safety in buildings more than 80 feet high. More recently, we have addressed building age issues with the adoption of façade and scaffolding ordinances which help to ensure public safety and require responsible building management and conservation.
Today, Chicago is leading the way in encouraging sustainable design and energy conservation. Overall, we recognize that the urban environment that we cherish produces unique challenges and we must have the flexibility and creativity to meet these challenges.
The continuing process of building code review and amendment is critical to our effort to keep Chicago buildings as safe as possible, to encourage innovative design and construction and to better serve the building industry. Many highly qualified and devoted volunteers from the architectural, engineering and building community have recognized the need for modernizing the code and have taken the opportunity to assist city leaders and staff in the building code initiative. Their assistance has been invaluable and will help make the Chicago Building Code more understandable and accessible for designers, builders and developers. We thank all of the volunteers for their work and look forward to the new code chapters to be proposed in the near future.
Sincerely,
gateway.dll

Richard M. Daley
Mayor


http://www.cityofchicago.org/city/en/depts/bldgs/provdrs/stand_plan/svcs/building_permit_status.html

Confirmation by City Building Dept. official(s) of whether conversion of unfinished attic space to finished GLA required a BP, C. of O. or Cert. of Compliance subsequent to 1930 would be step one should one decide to accept Mr. Lansford's invitation. Should either an original, or duplicate of the BC from the 1930s be available at City Hall (or the public library) that would be a plus. Confirmation inquiry may result in a negative response (not required) or a positive response (required).

If not required, subject "as-is" improvements appraised as legal use.
If required, either a copy of a BP/CO/CC still exists on file - or not.

Should the paper archived records have perished in a flood or fire in City Hall, or Muni. Hall of Records building, an EA that the finished attic space which existed ON the effective date of appraisal represented a Legal Use would be appropriate with Value Opinion subject to borrower or client obtaining written confirmation of same from the City.

If a BP/CO/CC was required ( i.e. muni records show the Bungalows were built after 1930 with unfinished storage attics) to convert attics into finished GLA and NO records of Permits or close-out CO/CC are recorded, the Market dictates buyers typically do pay a premium for additional GLA, appraisal values based on H.C. that the existing "as-is" improvements represented a legally permissible use as of the EDA and subject to confirmation of Municipal Compliance by borrower or client would be appropriate.

Whether a loan is approved or not is beyond the scope of appraisal license or Appraiser concern. The responsibility for Municipal ordinance compliance rests with the owner/borrower. The responsibility for accurately describing the existing improvements rests with the Appraiser.

Whether the Borrower or the Lender obtains written confirmation from the City is up to them. Reports should have a disclaimer asserting that should Municipal confirmation of legally permissible use NOT be forthcoming, re-appraisal would be required.

This forum, and others, are filled with posts by appraisers intentionally "giving no value" to possibly illegal conversions and describing improvements which actually exist as if they did not exist. Waving a "magic wand" and doing so is intentionally misleading and fraudulent. Doing so due to professional ignorance is demonstrated sheer incompetence. Looking the other way and "Assuming it all away" does the Client, Consumers, and Appraisers who do it right a major disservice. They deserve much better.

Conclusion:
Either a subject site "as-improved" ON an Effective Date of Appraisal represents (represented) a Legally Permissible, a Legal Non-conforming, or an Illegal Use. Appraisal tools "as-is", or "as-if" predicated on a valid, supported EA or a valid, supported HC exist. Use them as appropriate.

p.s. When next reviewing a Contract of Sale, you will mostly likely find that Attorneys who draft them increasingly began adding "out clauses" in the last 10 years or so (at least here in NY) stipulating (for example) "Seller warrants the subject property is, or will be, in full compliance with Municipal Ordinances and/or Regulations prior to closing". Legal responsibility for Municipal Compliance DOES become the new owner's responsibility. "Well, I bought it that way" holds NO weight in many/most municipalities where Building and/ or Zoning, or Combo Z&B ordinances exist or existed at the time of property sale.
 
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I have, fortunately, only had two situations similar to the one presented by the OP.

The first was in 2009. It was a 1950's era, ranch-style house in a small, suburban neighborhood within a largely rural Township that had zoning. I was engaged to complete a SFR, 1004, FHA appraisal for a borrower who was purchasing it. At that time, I was a recently-minted CR and my dad was still accompanying me to my inspections. The house had originally had a two car attached garage, and, the owner/seller at the time had added a third stall garage parallel to the existing two-stall garage. The third stall “appeared” to both myself and my dad to be very near the western property boundary. I got back to the office and immediately pulled up the local zoning code to find out what the side-yard set backs were. I also searched the forum for advice on how to handle it (I may have even started a thread about it~although I doubt it) and consulted a few other appraisers in the area. Once I read the side-yard set-back requirements for the designated zoning area, I knew that it was illegal, and, had not been permitted. Keep in mind, I’m not someone who sets out looking for illegal additions, but, I’m fully aware that when those situations present themselves, the issue of HBU must be considered and warrants additional research because it is fundamental to the valuation process (i.e. HBU is more than a box that gets checked on page 1) and white-washing it as, “not my job,” does no one any good. I called the zoning inspector and had a very lengthy discussion with him regarding the specifics of the property. I felt I had to disclose the dwelling to find out about the legality of the addition, itself. I was less concerned with confidentiality at that point. Anyway, he told me that a permit had, in fact, not been issued, and, that any future uses may be impacted as a result of the illegal presence of the third stall garage. Keep in mind, also, that I try to report what I would like to know as a borrower/client (any user of my services), If someone were doing appraisal work for me. If this poor girl bought that house, and, wanted to add a patio to the rear of the garage, or expand the GLA, she would have likely been rudely introduced to the world of zoning, permits, lawsuits against the former owner, the lender, and me.

If I recall, the original appraisal was done in September. I notified the client and the realtor(s) of the situation and completed the appraisal, “subject-to,” an inspection by the jurisdictional zoning authority to confirm or deny the legality of the addition, and, its future use as a sfd with a 3 car garage. As I write this, it’s all starting to come back now, btw. The appraisal was done for a regional bank that no longer exists. It was ordered by a now taken over AMC, and, they were in the process of being swallowed by Quantrix. This is one of my first and last appraisals for them, if any of you can imagine that. My wife and I were scheduled to leave for Vegas at the beginning of November, 2009, with about 45 people as were getting married out there. I knew that all of this crap would hit the fan then. Well, sure enough, the zoning inspector, I believe a Township Trustee, the realtors, the buyer, and seller all went to the property for the inspection after the appraisal was submitted, and, the inspector called it illegal and wouldn’t issue a retro-active permit. Some time in late October, I got a request from Quantrix, some specific manager but I forget his name, asking me to do a new appraisal because the addition was going to be removed. This was one of my first and last experiences with Quantrix (big boy AMC). The previous AMC, aside from requiring report conversion utilizing Lighthouse, was actually a good AMC based upon my short experience with them. Quantrix tried to screw me on the fee for the new assignment immediately, but, they eventually caved and paid the same fee that I had been paid for the first appraisal. I was already starting to have doubts about them as an AMC client then. Well, I looked at the property again about 1 day before I left for Vegas to get married, and, I told the d-bag at Quantrix that I was going out of town, and, that he’d have it some time after I got back. I think he called my cell phone 3 or 4 times when I was in Vegas (even though I asked him for privacy), and, the following Monday morning, he called me at, like, 7:00 a.m for a status update. Sorry about the AMC anecdote, I try to never miss an opportunity to bash them when I can.

Anyway, long story short, the zoning officer made the former owner take down the garage addition and the girl got her house, although without the third stall garage. Once it was all said and done with, the listing agent called and thanked me for doing what I did and told me that the wife of the former seller wanted her to apologize to me because she apparently said some nasty things about me while it was going on. The realtor told me that the wife had warned her husband to get the permit, but, he just didn’t do it. I didn’t need her to do that, but, it was nice anyway. I never heard how their marriage was working out, btw.

I’ll spare you the details of the second situation, but, it involved a 10 acre estate-type property with a custom-built dwelling, a large barn, an attorney owner/occupant, and a custom-built, 300 sf log cabin that he paid $30,000 to have added just off the rear of his back deck where he and his paralegal worked. He didn’t get a permit and the zoning officer (whom he knew) was ticked. I simply called to confirm the legality of the cabin installation so that I could answer HBU/legality/use questions. In that case, the zoning inspector issued a retro-permit.

Anyway, thought I’d share. I think, “it depends,” most aptly characterizes our individual responses to situations like these, but, hiding behind your own interpretation of what is expected vs. actually doing your job is doing a disservice to your clients. I tend to revert to the, “how would I want this handled if it were me on the client/borrower end,” to guide me through situations like these and it has served me well, so far.
 
We are here to sell "Meaningful to Intended Users", not widgets. Those intended users are seldom limited to just the client.

If you've got a client who's asking to qualify the data you're reporting for the subject it's probably reasonable to conclude the answer may be meaningful to them or one of the other intended users. One of those other users may even be the one asking the question.

Whether you get fairly paid for the work involved is a separate issue altogether.
 
I'd agree with Hatch except now I've forgotten which side I was on in this thread.
 
Thanks to all for your input. Thanks again to you as well Mike.
 
[FONT=&quot]I’ve been involved in several non-permitted dwelling appraisal issues and found that most municipalities just require an inspection and a double to triple cost permit fee as penalty.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The only problems have been when the work wasn’t up to snuff and had to be remedied to code.[/FONT]
 
I certainly hope that the permit police are checking not only the permits but also the plans that accompany the permits and the final inspection and/or the Certificate of Occupancy to make sure everything was inspected as being completed per plans.

A permit by itself often means very little.
 
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