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Assessed Value Of Storm Water Management Ponds

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Ag land in IN is assessed at $1,960/acre, by law. EVERY farmer in this state gets a property tax break, in spite of what some of the Ag cheerleaders think.

Most of the ag land is selling for between $6,000 and $10,000 per acre. Farmers willingly pay $8K/acre on avg. and cry about having to pay taxes based on $1,960/acre. If they deserve a tax break so do the truckers that haul grain, the stores that sell processed grain, the banks that lend $ on the land because with no $, no farms.

Like the bumper stickers on the $75K 4-WD diesel Ford pickups, No farms, no Food. Well, no trucks-no food, no banks-no food, no Wallyworld market, no food.etc. Farmers are a link in a long chain but they've convinced a lot of people that they're 'special'. I should get a property tax break on my office because if there's no appraisers, no loans. No loans, no farms.

I've spent enough time on farms to know how 'tough' of a life they have. I feel sorry for the guy working at WalMart more than the avg. farmer. Farmers want everybody to think that they're out pulling a one row plow with a mule instead of sitting in the climate controlled cab of a tractor or combine, talking on their cell phones connected by bluetooth to the stereo while they're being guided by GPS.

One of the funniest (and most hypocritical) conversations I've ever had was with a farmer who was complaining about all of the Corporate welfare! I guess corporate AG welfare doesn't count.

BTW, I'm only talking about the property tax subsidies. I won't even get into their special IRS rules or the subsidized crop insurance programs that have farmers praying for a good drought.
While your stance may not be the most popular, I'm not sure that it is entirely wrong, although I also see some merit to Terrel's argument. The last appraisal of farmland I did was valued at $10,500 per acre and the assessment was $550/ acre. Obviously, if farmland was reassessed to 100% of market levels, there would be a significant shock to the market. But, there are some commercial properties in Central Illinois that are really getting hit by property taxes that have gone up throughout the region on both an AV and tax rate standpoint since roughly 2008. I do work for the assessor also, so I'm certainly not any property tax advocate, but have seen property taxes at approximately 25% of EGI in many cases, which was unheard of previously. There has also been an unfortunate recent trend of market participants outright misstating the sale price on Ptax forms, which makes things more difficult for appraisers, and I believe that is partially attributable to this issue. When I first started appraising in 2006, the expense ratio used for many commercial properties might be in the 30% - 35% range for gross leases, but it is now 40% - 45% in many cases, with the discrepancy mainly due to the increased taxes. There are some structural issues that could be tackled, and obviously, I reside in a state with the worst-run government in the nation, but if farmers paid market value, rather than based on some other metric, perhaps the resulting tax rate would be lower for commercial properties in the same jurisdiction.
 


There are literally hundreds more examples. Show me one farmer who gets a break on property taxes.
This is my neighbors tax bill on 40 acres and some chicken barns.Assessed is 20% of valuation

Every farmer in PA who signs up for the Clean & Green program gets a break on property taxes. A very substantial break in most cases, as in they typically pay about 15 to 35 percent of the property taxes they normally would. I assume many/most other states have similar programs for farmers and woodland owners.

I really don't want to get into the pissing match about farmers, but they do often indeed get substantial property tax benefits not available to owners of other businesses with similar property values and/or revenues. I'm not saying this might not benefit all of us who have to eat, but it's disingenuous to deny that it's true.
 
He gave a definition of "nil". It's readily available now. Remember we are talking about market value, not tax assessment or use value or whatever else.

It's like can I sell you the moon? Or what about Jupiter?

Market value by all three approaches equals "NIL"

Mostly out of curiosity, can you point me to any pertinent definitions of "nil"? I'm only seeing "nothing" or "zero"?
 
if farmers paid market value, rather than based on some other metric, perhaps the resulting tax rate would be lower for commercial properties in the same jurisdiction
The problem is that farmers cannot make that kind of money year in, year out. The returns on land are often under 2%, less than 1% if you are too close to a building up urban area. I know a dairy farmer trying to get to a retirement age on a farm that has been in his family since shortly after the Civil War. If he sells, he will pay taxes on 100% of the price. His improvements will be dozed down although they are, as an operating farm, worth hundreds of thousands...which are reflected on the taxes because these tax breaks only apply to the LAND, not the improvements. But suburban sprawl has reached his border and his land will bring $40K in a heartbeat per acre...His farm likely generates a net income of less than $100,000... So $5,000,000 in land becomes $50,000 plus in property taxes. After we've run all the farmers out of business, who is going to feed us...some window box organic farmer?

Brits and the French think differently and there, too, people complain the farmer is favored. But they have a different idea too. Mainly, towns are for towns, and if you want to build, then the government decides if your project makes sense, and you pay dearly for the conversion beyond buying the land. And don't even think about building a commercial enterprise beyond the boundaries of the city. Sprawl does not happen there. When you leave the city limits you are in the country.

As an example of the economics of pasture rents here are $40 an acre for good grass land. I was offered the same to farm my ground. That's $3,200 a YEAR income. The 40 next to me sold for $5,025/acre, say $5k...simple math. My land value would be $400,000, 20% assessment ratio, $80,000 taxable at 0.053, That's $4,240 a year. I would be FORCED to sell out or pay dearly. What hunting club could afford the taxes on woodlots or duck swamps unless they had so many hunters they were sitting on each other's shoulders or limited each to a couple days per season? Who would buy? Wealthy people who would promptly buy a politician or two and get it changed back. If they own it all, then the land becomes nigh worthless. If you timber the whole place to stumps you crush the environment benefit of letting land lay.

I am sure some of you are thinking, no problem. Let the farmer raise the price of beef so they can pay more for pasture rents, and the owner can pay the tax. Sure. You know what will happen. Rather than pay more, you import cheaper beef and devastate the farmer and rancher even more. We've done that with our fruit crops. And why do you think so many manufacturers packed it up and went to Mexico, China, etc.? Where are the furniture plants that used to be in almost every state? Where are the textile mills? One big reason is our tax structure, only labor being a bigger cost. What happens when we are totally dependent upon the rest of the world to feed us? To build all our cars? appliances? Anyone who thinks we can all live off the 'net and "intellectual property" has to be sucking on one of UCs gummy bears. The rest of the world is not stupid enough to sell their farmers down the river and tax them to death. They'll be happy to sell us their surplus food...just hope we don't get an early 1960s style famine...

Further, places like Colorado eyed these patches as "non-farm" so they stuck people with high taxes. And the result has been the Rockies are chopped up into small parcels because people cannot afford to hold lots or anything of any size without paying too dearly. Bad tax policy has been an serious environmental negative. It means tons of houses are found in the middle of nowheresville and still cost a mint to buy, so you only buy 3 acres...that's the new ranch. 4 acres and a llama...

The solution is to abolish the property tax and charge a sales tax on deeds and mortgages.
 
Bad tax policy has been an serious environmental negative. It means tons of houses are found in the middle of nowheresville and still cost a mint to buy, so you only buy 3 acres...that's the new ranch. 4 acres and a llama...

The solution is to abolish the property tax and charge a sales tax on deeds and mortgages.

:clapping::clapping::clapping:


I disagree with the solution though.

The solution is to downsize the governments, the schools, put government workers back into the economy, at benefits and rates that are available in the private sector. Reduce the government's need of taxes. Do we need so many jails where 1/3rd of the population has been in one? Some people are bad and need to be in jail, but when we have jails that have contracts to have beds filled, well, suddenly far to many people become the opportunity to fill those jail contracts. Imagine if there were only a handful of bad people that needed to be in jail. Think of all the guards that would be laid off, and the judges, and the court staff and the parole officers, and clerks, and attorneys, holy cow, maybe we should protect the right to have so many bad people.

Do we need all those teachers? Education scores don't seem to go up when compared around the globe. Maybe more kids per class is the key, with less teachers, or 40 years of service before retirement instead of 20, or maybe teachers pay for their own additional degrees when hired, instead of taxes funding those additional degrees. Perhaps kids could cyber school. or throw spitballs at robot teachers.

.
 
As an example of the economics of pasture rents here are $40 an acre for good grass land. I was offered the same to farm my ground. That's $3,200 a YEAR income. The 40 next to me sold for $5,025/acre

Your numbers aren't too different than where I am. When I hear about ag land rents, I always shake my head in bewilderment. If a farmer can only afford to pay $40 an acre to rent land, how/why does he pay $5,000 an acre to buy it? That implies a cap rate of less than one percent. I know of a good corn field that rents for $200 an acre, but nearby fields have sold for $10,000 an acre. That's a cap rate of 2.0%. Something just doesn't make sense. Why are rents so low compared to land value?

I realize part of your post refers to farm land changing use to something else, but I see the same thing with farm land in rural areas that are not bought for development, and development is not on the horizon. If a farmer pays $10,000 an acre for land to grow corn, it seems to me that that is the value for ag use. Is it not fair to assume that he is getting a reasonable return on that land for ag use? Is it erroneous to wonder if he can pay that much partly because his taxes are based on a value one-fifth as much?

You, Terrel, are clearly passionate about this issue, and I'm not trying to bust your balls. I'm genuinely curious. But aren't there myriad industries that can point to jobs being generated and other economic benefits that don't get property tax breaks? You might be right that there is a real problem is property taxes in general for all uses, but that doesn't address why one industry gets huge ongoing breaks and others do not. It seems to me the problem is farmers have bid up land prices to an extent that doesn't make sense.
 
The problem is that farmers cannot make that kind of money year in, year out. The returns on land are often under 2%, less than 1% if you are too close to a building up urban area. I know a dairy farmer trying to get to a retirement age on a farm that has been in his family since shortly after the Civil War. If he sells, he will pay taxes on 100% of the price. His improvements will be dozed down although they are, as an operating farm, worth hundreds of thousands...which are reflected on the taxes because these tax breaks only apply to the LAND, not the improvements. But suburban sprawl has reached his border and his land will bring $40K in a heartbeat per acre...His farm likely generates a net income of less than $100,000... So $5,000,000 in land becomes $50,000 plus in property taxes. After we've run all the farmers out of business, who is going to feed us...some window box organic farmer?

Brits and the French think differently and there, too, people complain the farmer is favored. But they have a different idea too. Mainly, towns are for towns, and if you want to build, then the government decides if your project makes sense, and you pay dearly for the conversion beyond buying the land. And don't even think about building a commercial enterprise beyond the boundaries of the city. Sprawl does not happen there. When you leave the city limits you are in the country.

As an example of the economics of pasture rents here are $40 an acre for good grass land. I was offered the same to farm my ground. That's $3,200 a YEAR income. The 40 next to me sold for $5,025/acre, say $5k...simple math. My land value would be $400,000, 20% assessment ratio, $80,000 taxable at 0.053, That's $4,240 a year. I would be FORCED to sell out or pay dearly. What hunting club could afford the taxes on woodlots or duck swamps unless they had so many hunters they were sitting on each other's shoulders or limited each to a couple days per season? Who would buy? Wealthy people who would promptly buy a politician or two and get it changed back. If they own it all, then the land becomes nigh worthless. If you timber the whole place to stumps you crush the environment benefit of letting land lay.

I am sure some of you are thinking, no problem. Let the farmer raise the price of beef so they can pay more for pasture rents, and the owner can pay the tax. Sure. You know what will happen. Rather than pay more, you import cheaper beef and devastate the farmer and rancher even more. We've done that with our fruit crops. And why do you think so many manufacturers packed it up and went to Mexico, China, etc.? Where are the furniture plants that used to be in almost every state? Where are the textile mills? One big reason is our tax structure, only labor being a bigger cost. What happens when we are totally dependent upon the rest of the world to feed us? To build all our cars? appliances? Anyone who thinks we can all live off the 'net and "intellectual property" has to be sucking on one of UCs gummy bears. The rest of the world is not stupid enough to sell their farmers down the river and tax them to death. They'll be happy to sell us their surplus food...just hope we don't get an early 1960s style famine...

Further, places like Colorado eyed these patches as "non-farm" so they stuck people with high taxes. And the result has been the Rockies are chopped up into small parcels because people cannot afford to hold lots or anything of any size without paying too dearly. Bad tax policy has been an serious environmental negative. It means tons of houses are found in the middle of nowheresville and still cost a mint to buy, so you only buy 3 acres...that's the new ranch. 4 acres and a llama...

The solution is to abolish the property tax and charge a sales tax on deeds and mortgages.
The environmental aspect is one that I could align with but from a strictly economic sense, I get that returns are low as a percentage. Say returns are $250 per acre-if the value of the property was $10,000 per acre, AV ratio is 33.33%, and the tax rate is 8%, that implies $267 per year in taxes, whereas before it might be $45 per acre. This suggests $28 per acre in NOI based on changing tax policy but the value remaining at $10,000. Clearly, a tax policy change would not allow land values to remain at $10,000, and one could argue that they are inflated as a result of tax policy. Would that also mean that land values would decline by roughly 83% to account for tax policy changes also? I would contend no to that, as well. It probably would be passed on to consumers in the form of higher prices, which would allow the farmer to maintain a NOI of perhaps $200/ acre based on a farmland value of say, $7,000, rather than $10,000.
 
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Mostly out of curiosity, can you point me to any pertinent definitions of "nil"? I'm only seeing "nothing" or "zero"?

It's virtually nonexistent relative to the market value definition. As of the effective date. It rhymes with highest and best use in relationship to market value. Like no market exists.

That's the reason I said can I sell you the moon? He would not put zero for an opinion of market value. It was "nil".

Highest and best use would be to hold or give away or similar.
 
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Highest and best use is tied to market value. It's not tied to use value for example. That's why we have to give or develop an opinion of H&B use on every market value opinion. Not so on other value definitions.

Another thought is zero is not good like "nil" for a market value opinion because it does hold the earth together.
 
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