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Be the Driver, rather than just a passenger of your appraisal practice

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Your response makes zero sense when I am speaking of my own personal experiences and referring to some of the "alternatives" I have seen in the course of my work and in conversations with market participants. I'm not trying to sell anything. I just appraise property for the purpose of the assignment, including property disposition efforts when "risk management" fails.
It was you that asserted that the alternatives were more risky. I just asked if you had data to back that up. Pretty simple.

"More risky" as compared to what? Do you think traditional appraisals are perfect?

When alternatives to traditional appraisals are considered for potential adoption that is only done after extensive testing. One of the major hurdles a new method has to get over is that it must provide risk management that is at least as good (preferably better) as the current process. That analysis is not done anecdotally; it is done with data and math.

It is called risk management, not risk elimination, for a reason. No matter how good the controls are, some loans go bad. That is part of lending.
 
It was you that asserted that the alternatives were more risky. I just asked if you had data to back that up. Pretty simple.

"More risky" as compared to what? Do you think traditional appraisals are perfect?

When alternatives to traditional appraisals are considered for potential adoption that is only done after extensive testing. One of the major hurdles a new method has to get over is that it must provide risk management that is at least as good (preferably better) as the current process. That analysis is not done anecdotally; it is done with data and math.

It is called risk management, not risk elimination, for a reason. No matter how good the controls are, some loans go bad. That is part of lending.
THIS is the problem I was trying to point about substituting risk management " for Evaluation of the subject for a lending decision"
Despite George Hatch saying it is just semantics, they are NOT the same or similar using a different verbiage

Risk management is not just the evaluation about the property, it is about RISK down the road (some loans go bad). That is about borrower performance and future events.
So they assign a not intended use to an appraisal ( risk management ), then, since appraisals were not designed for risk management, they say other valuation methods are no more worse at risk management so let's replace appraisals.
Appraisers fall into the trap when they say other products are more risky than appraisals. The metric is are other products as good as or worse than appraisals at providing ALL the information needed to make a good lending decision for property evaluation purpose.

Is that true though -if a WAIVER is same risk or slightly less risky than an appraisal, then why aren't the humans who came up with the point value for the Waiver liable for the value? Clearly, the stakeholders don't want to assume it, so they relieve the lender of reps and warranties ( liability ) if property was over valued or faulty and a default happens

The appraisal is no better than other products at risk management because an appraisal was not designed as a risk management tool . We are powerless to stop lenders and stakeholders from using appraisals as a risk management tool, but then they use that to say appraisals being nothing to the table wrt risk management so let's replace them.

However, seems appraisals are still "better" as an evaluation product, it's intended use. I say that because the original appraisal is still relied on for a refinance LTV, for an existing loan with a lender when they grant a WAIVER and rework rates on the loan balance. Consider the short form products/desktop/hybrids, are still an appraisal needing the appraiser point value signed by appraiser and by extension lender takes liability for the valuation aspect, because not doing so would add to risk and thus spike mortgage rates up as then all valuation liability would shift to the taxpayer
 
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Stop fretting the semantics and consider instead the question of "who is doing what?".

The lenders and GSEs *incur* the risk when they initially make the loan. If they are merely looking at the property's value after that they are just re-assessing their current position as of that more recent date. If they're rewriting the loan for rate/term they're still just monitoring their current position except this time the question is whether or not to rewrite.

None of this is about holding the original appraiser's value conclusion as being applicable at a later effective date. That's not what DW said and it's not what he meant.
No, it is way beyond mere semantics. See Danny's post # 111. He links risk management to the fact that some loans go bad.

A loan going bad is a future event and a borrower performance fail. See my lengthy response to that. Danny takes the heat because he is kind enough to post here, but there is a reason those on Stakeholder side ( some others here as well use that term) choose the word risk management rather than the word that reflects an intended use ( property evaluation.) If it were semantics then why don't they say property evaluation, when talking about the role of appraisals in lending ? ( a question that I tried to answer in my post 112)
 
just curious, since it is their narrative, does risk equal race? and if it isn't could you provide all the waiver data in cleveland? :rof:
:rof: :rof:
 
THIS is the problem I was trying to point about substituting risk management " for Evaluation of the subject for a lending decision"
Despite George Hatch saying it is just semantics, they are NOT the same or similar using a different verbiage

Risk management is not just the evaluation about the property, it is about RISK down the road (some loans go bad). That is about borrower performance and future events.
So they assign a not intended use to an appraisal ( risk management ), then, since appraisals were not designed for risk management, they say other valuation methods are no more worse at risk management so let's replace appraisals.
Appraisers fall into the trap when they say other products are more risky than appraisals. The metric is are other products as good as or worse than appraisals at providing ALL the information needed to make a good lending decision for property evaluation purpose.

Is that true though -if a WAIVER is same risk or slightly less risky than an appraisal, then why aren't the humans who came up with the point value for the Waiver liable for the value? Clearly, the stakeholders don't want to assume it, so they relieve the lender of reps and warranties ( liability ) if property was over valued or faulty and a default happens

The appraisal is no better than other products at risk management because an appraisal was not designed as a risk management tool . We are powerless to stop lenders and stakeholders from using appraisals as a risk management tool, but then they use that to say appraisals being nothing to the table wrt risk management so let's replace them.

However, seems appraisals are still "better" as an evaluation product, it's intended use. I say that because the original appraisal is still relied on for a refinance LTV, for an existing loan with a lender when they grant a WAIVER and rework rates on the loan balance. Consider the short form products/desktop/hybrids, are still an appraisal needing the appraiser point value signed by appraiser and by extension lender takes liability for the valuation aspect, because not doing so would add to risk and thus spike mortgage rates up as then all valuation liability would shift to the taxpayer
LOL. Let me summarize your post....

I do not really know how the system works. I am just upset. Rather than trying to research how it works, I will make something up about how the system works, post that as if it is gospel truth, and then attack the false scenario that I created.

You really think an AVM cannot produce a point value??? As those football guys say, C'mon man!!

You seem to have lost sight of the forest. For mortgage-related appraisal work, the appraisal is just one piece of the risk management spectrum. But, at the end of the day the risk being managed is the risk of the loan going bad. If appraisals did not help mitigate that risk, then there would be no need for them in relation to a mortgage.
 

What Was the Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac Bailout?​


The Bailout Cost to Taxpayers​


According to an independent economic group, the Shadow Open Market Committee (SOMC), keeping the two agencies afloat cost taxpayers US$187 billion over time as the Treasury paid $116 billion for Fannie and $71 billion for Freddie.




In August 2012 the Treasury decided it would send all Fannie and Freddie profits to their fund rather than simply collecting a 10% dividend. As of 2019, the bailout has been paid back with an additional $58 billion in profit, reported by SOMC. Fannie remitted $147 billion, and Freddie paid $98 billion.23




The Fannie and Freddie bailout was greater than the 1989 saving and loan crisis, which cost the taxpayers $132 billion.4 It was on par with the subsequent 2008 bailout of AIG, which started at $85 billion but grew to $182 billion.5 Both were small potatoes compared to the 2008 $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP) bailout of the U.S. banking system, even though the U.S. Treasury shows only $444 billion of TARP funds were spent as of April 2021.6

the gse's ability to decipher risk is beyond compare :rof:


:rof: :rof:
 
The risk levels on the appraisal side is very minimal in defaults. Its almost all on the borrowers credit , employment and income stability, A Value can be plus or minus 5% and make virtually no difference at time of foreclosure as the recovery of any monies is now based on what the property was worth at the time of sale and disposition. In recent years we saw prices at trustee sales actually being over bid above the Note and trust deeds balances, whereas in normal markets we would expect to see bids lower than what had been owed. BUT in almost all cases the " Original -Appraised" Value had no little to no effect positive or negative, its simply no longer part of the "risk" analysis that stopped the day the loan was funded.

MY POINT IS APPRAISALS HAVE ALMOST NO REAL VALUE IN RISK ASSESSMENT EXCEPT ON THE DAY THEY ARE SIGNED, after that its almost all driven by Market Forces and the Health of the Nations Economy. In our next mortgage meltdown the Quants will finally realize the traditional 1004 appraisal is a worthless paper weight and there would have been less "Risk" having using waivers and other modern terminological tools.
 
LOL. Let me summarize your post....

I do not really know how the system works. I am just upset. Rather than trying to research how it works, I will make something up about how the system works, post that as if it is gospel truth, and then attack the false scenario that I created.

You really think an AVM cannot produce a point value??? As those football guys say, C'mon man!!

You seem to have lost sight of the forest. For mortgage-related appraisal work, the appraisal is just one piece of the risk management spectrum. But, at the end of the day the risk being managed is the risk of the loan going bad. If appraisals did not help mitigate that risk, then there would be no need for them in relation to a mortgage.
You explained to me how it works, and the gist of my post reflects how the system works, even if my language may be imprecise on some points.

I never said an AVM can not produce a point value!! I understand very well an AVM can produce a point value. So where is the false scenario?

You seem to have lost sight of the forest. For mortgage-related appraisal work, the appraisal is just one piece of the risk management spectrum. But, at the end of the day the risk being managed is the risk of the loan going bad. If appraisals did not help mitigate that risk, then there would be no need for them in relation to a mortgage.

Per the above statement, appraisal ( for a tree ) still contributes enough to the lending forest to bee used for the lending concern with the loan going bad. However, I kept point out that the purpose fhte the appraisal itself is not about " the loan going bad", it is the origination decision of front end evalcuation of the property.

If the lending total system is the forest then the trees are the properties as collateral. And an appraisal has deeper roots for anchoring the value of the collaterlal because of the appraisal taking responsibly for the value ( which extends to a lender share of it in warranties and reps )
 
I never said an AVM can not produce a point value!! I understand very well an AVM can produce a point value. So where is the false scenario?
You said that AVMs only produce a range and that a human picks a point value. Then you edited it. :)
 
You said that AVMs only produce a range and that a human picks a point value. Then you edited it. :)
She can't help it, Danny. Democrats never let the truth get in the way of their agenda. :) Just joking and needling, J Grant.
 
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