California makes another change re: trainees!

[erick anderson]

It almost won't matter if an AL is AQB compliant if they're still working under supervision, except that most lenders probably won't require personal inspection by the supervisor. If an non-AQB AL is working on their own they could run into a lot of rejections, depending on how aware the reviewers and underwriters are. A lender wouldn't want to get caught with an appraisal they can't sell.

I'm going to make sure that every reviewer who works for my review client knows to check ALs with high license numbers for AQB compliance, so they don't run into this problem. That's a pretty good chunk of the residential market here in this region. I imagine Brad Ellis and any of the other chief appraisers for the major lenders who frequent this forum is going to do the same. It won't take long for the word to get around.

Since this is going to cause some confusion at the state level I'm hoping the OREA just does away with the broker exemption altogether. I think having restrictions on some ALs detracts from the utility of the license for all ALs. I mean, some lenders could choose to refuse to deal with all ALs in California as the easiest means of avoiding problems.

The OREA goes to lengths to be in step with The Appraisal Foundation. Now that they know this is a problem, I can't imagine they want to be out of step with the AQB on this.

George, you're a proud advocate of the "status quo." I think the lenders generally will continue to use the appraisers they work with and do a good job for them, regardless of the minor details of California licensing. If an AT or AL does a great job at 1000 hours, why give them the Hatch(et)??

I think California's broker exemption is innovative. It fosters more knowledgeable and well-rounded appraisers and brokers, which is a benefit to the real estate industry as a whole.

 

[Alan Ayoub]

George, you're a proud advocate of the "status quo." I think the lenders generally will continue to use the appraisers they work with and do a good job for them, regardless of the minor details of California licensing. If an AT or AL does a great job at 1000 hours, why give them the Hatch(et)??

I think California's broker exemption is innovative. It fosters more knowledgeable and well-rounded appraisers and brokers, which is a benefit to the real estate industry as a whole.

Im going to have to agree. Wait...do I have a bias? Isnt bias and advocacy a violation of appraiser ethics? I'm Bias and I cant help it...Brokers license excemption all the way....the more we know...the greater the threat we become....

 

[hastalavista]

Erik & Alan-

George can speak for himself; I'll speak for me:

I (nor anyone else I know) am not saying that a broker's license:

A. Isn't a good thing to have. I'd think having one is better than not, in most cases.
B. Doesn't provide an individual with a "deeper/wider" knowledge base. All appraisers who want to grow professionally would benefit by increasing their overall real estate knowledge.

What I do say is that having a broker's license does not provide a substitute for supervised appraisal experience if the objective of the logged 2,000 hours is to obtain a minimum level of practical experience in the appraisal profession.
A broker's license is a good thing.
It does not provide a substitute for practical appraisal experience.

That's my opinion (and, apparently the AQB's too).
And, since I do not have a broker's license, I'll will give your opinions of the benefit of having such a license considerable weight.
On the other hand, since I've been a trainee, a fully licensed appraiser, and a supervisor/mentor of 10+ trainees over the years, some with broker licenses and real estate agent/loan agent backgrounds, I'll give my experience considerable weight in evaluating how best to provide supervised appraisal experience for a trainee who is trying to meet a minimum qualification standard in order to competently complete assignments "unsupervised".

And, remember, the 2,000 hours is a minimum standard. There may be individuals who can master the appraisal arts in less than that time. Most appraiser savants I know come to their level of knowledge and insight via experience.

:new_smile-l:

 

[Head Surfer]

Erik & Alan-

George can speak for himself; I'll speak for me:

I (nor anyone else I know) am not saying that a broker's license:

A. Isn't a good thing to have. I'd think having one is better than not, in most cases.
B. Doesn't provide an individual with a "deeper/wider" knowledge base. All appraisers who want to grow professionally would benefit by increasing their overall real estate knowledge.

What I do say is that having a broker's license does not provide a substitute for supervised appraisal experience if the objective of the logged 2,000 hours is to obtain a minimum level of practical experience in the appraisal profession.
A broker's license is a good thing.
It does not provide a substitute for practical appraisal experience.

That's my opinion (and, apparently the AQB's too).
And, since I do not have a broker's license, I'll will give your opinions of the benefit of having such a license considerable weight.
On the other hand, since I've been a trainee, a fully licensed appraiser, and a supervisor/mentor of 10+ trainees over the years, some with broker licenses and real estate agent/loan agent backgrounds, I'll give my experience considerable weight in evaluating how best to provide supervised appraisal experience for a trainee who is trying to meet a minimum qualification standard in order to competently complete assignments "unsupervised".

And, remember, the 2,000 hours is a minimum standard. There may be individuals who can master the appraisal arts in less than that time. Most appraiser savants I know come to their level of knowledge and insight via experience.

:new_smile-l:

Good answer Dennis! As a former appraiser, who was a broker prior to being an appraiser, I can definitely say that having a sales agent's license, and then a broker's license and having been full time in the real estate brokerage field for 10 years prior to entering the appraisal field is a definite help!

However it is not, and should not be, a substitute for the 2,000 hours of performing appraisals under a competent supervisor.

Nevertheless, if some states allow a 1,000 hour exemption for having the broker's license, I do not blame anyone for taking advantage of it, as I surely would have had licensing been in place when I became an appraiser in 1984.

I have seen appraisers ready to work on their own in as little as 6 months, and I have seen some that are NOT ready in 5 years. That's just the difference in abilities that people have.

 

[George Hatch]

As far as the state is concerned it doesn't matter what I think - they have their program and I (we) have to operate within it. I'm an advocate for a fair and evenly enforced licensing program. I don't think the broker exemption has been that widely used to begin with, so although it is very irritating I don't think I'd characterize that as a crisis. After all, they still have to find a job and they still have to get the first 1000 hours, and this remains the hardest part of breaking into the business. Most broker ATs aren't going to be any more successful at that than any other trainee.

The bigger problem with the current system is allowing junior appraisers to supervise other appraisers, and allowing supervisors to have an unlimited number of trainees; and not necessarily in that order. Most 2000 hour appraisers I've ever met (and I've met a lot of them) can be trusted to make their way through a basic vanilla assignment on their own without fear of messing it up but are usually in over their heads when it comes to the more complicated assignments. At that stage they literally don't know what they don't know; and are in no position to explain those things to trainees. The same is going to be true for a 1000 hour broker-exemption AL, only more so. Going independent too early really cuts into a person's learning curve. It takes a lot longer to get better when there's nobody around to bounce things off on.

As I've said before, if a junior AL continues to associate with more experienced appraisers after they get their ticket then the only practical difference is that they don't need a co-signer and a physical inspection by supervisor for every assignment. That's okay because we should be able to trust an AL to be competent to do solo inspections on most anything after 2000 hours. The trick is to get these guys past the 6000 hour mark or so, which is where most people really come to recognize which assignments to take and which to pass on or ask for help. Most appraisers are a lot "smarter" at 2,000 hours than they are at 10,000 hours.

Shutting the junior appraisers down from running AT-heavy fee shops will be a significant improvement - I wish they'd done it a long time ago.

 

[Alan Ayoub]

for the record...

Eric and Alan arnt married although some people think we are. This is probably the 30th post where someone typed "Eric & Alan" like we're a couple.

 

[Randolph Kinney]

I'll pass on the broker's exemption being good or bad.

However, even after receiving the vaunted AL license after 2000 hours, there are times when hand-holding and reassurance comes in handy by contacting one's mentor for a out of the ordinary assignment. Even this forum is a great source for learning through difficulties and experience from other appraisers.

I suppose the rub comes in for those whose livelihood is going to be impacted by the changes. And there will be more changes to come after 01/01/2008.

 

[Mike Boyd]

excemption? Is that a word? I know of exemption and exception. Has OREA coined a new word or did you, Alan?

 

[Alan Ayoub]

excemption? Is that a word? I know of exemption and exception. Has OREA coined a new word or did you, Alan?

Its a spelling error....maybe we should whip me and hang me like the founders of this country did to bad slaves...ya know...since I added a C in a exemption a couple of times. Please...put me at the bottom the pit and throw rocks at me till I'm dead...

Since I passed the appraisers exam I can now say.... Its not as hard as everyone made it out to me. All the discouraging remarks on this board are very telling.

For those of you who have been helpful, I'm obviously not talking to you. To the people who take it to heart and have had nothing but negative things to say...I'm probably talking about/to you.

It confuses me why people make it more difficult than it should be. Lots of energy spent crucifying people for all the wrong reasons....Oppression is so 1824.

With that said...Let me stick to the topic of the thread. Even with all the changes, if youre a hard worker and you keep up with the times (huhuhm BA Degree)....the OREA's changes shouldnt affect you (I'm talking to the rest of Trainees who may feel discouraged by the changes).

I managed to land a job with an EXCELLENT mentor. My Mentors attitude is everything...I've been blessed. He has no problem helping me help him. He has similar views to me...positive meets positive. It makes a ton of sense why Steve Torrano left the forum....I get it. Its strange...my Mentor is no where near discourging and he wants to go out of his way to help.

I encourage my fellow appraisers (I can say that now since I got my Trainee License) :new_smile-l: to have a positive attitude and see the positive instead of the negative.

Dont let the changes change you...change with the changes. Steve inspired me to keep my head in the game and now I must wish the same to ANY trainee who thinks it rough right now. Its not as bad as the forum wants us to believe it is....keep hope alive.

 

[George Hatch]

Congratualtions of getting your first job. Hopefully it will be to your benefit and you'll learn a lot. Hopefully you'll come to realize - if you haven't already - that running a fee shop in 6 months is probably not in your best interests.

The test is possibly the easiest part of the process. I don't know where you got the idea it was hard. Incidentally, if you took the test prep classes offered one of the biggest qualifying ed programs in the state then you can thank me for it's content because I edited and corrected it for them. LOTS of editing and correction. You may not think so, but I'm a big proponent of teaching trainees properly.

The OREAs changes for 01/2008 won't affect a trainee's path to getting their AL one bit, so I agree with you that trainees have no reason to get upset about them either.