Car hoist, personal property?

[PropertyEconomics]

I would read the contract, find out how it was addressed in the contract, and if it was not mentioned, I would declare it personal property and state the contract was silent to the fixutre.

 

[Walter Kirk]

Old style hydrolic hoists require a hole in the garage floor( where the post rests) , a new concrete patch over the hole and permanint embedded air lines, thats a fixture. Newer hoists are designed to be moved and I consider them personal property.

 

[Ken B]

Walter is exactly correct.

 

[Ray Miller]

Tim,

I did one the other day out in the middle of no where by Arkdale, WI that had a hoist. The guy had built a really nice shop for his retirement. He said after the first couple of years he stopped using the shop. No one would come out and help him restore the old cars.

He is talking about booking an auction to clear out all his tools and equipment and the three restored cars that he has in the shop. This is a four bay shop with storage tool room and a lounge. If he books the auction, I fear the auctioneer will be force to bid on the calendars with all the very nice looking young ladies. The kind of calendars that are no longer politically correct in today’s world. The type you use to see in all the auto repair and print shops. Fine art at its best.

In this case it was attached to the property was in the floor of the shop with air hoses or oil hoses to raise and lower the hoist. I considered it part of the real estate for the simple fact the cost to take it out and restore the shop floor. No Real Value and gave my reasons why.

 

[Terrel L. Shields]

In a commercial setting it would be considered "trade fixture" if attached to a rented space; and thus is not real estate - i.e.- a service garage item necessary to its function as a garage. Without the equipment necessary to make a garage a garage it is merely a shell building. But often the situation is not a rental and this appears to be the case here. Thus, it imho needs to be considered as either permanently affixed or not. If permanently affixed (no matter that it CAN be removed - so can a stove or dishwasher) it is real property. The fact that it is unusual isn't any different from the fact that a whole house generator would be unusual; a Ham radio tower; etc.

I think a buyer might be intrigued by having a hoist, but otoh, few would be willing to pay a big premium for same. That's not to say it is either real or personal property. Many times contracts specify certain items as being included or not included in the sale. That is a function of preventing unforeseen consequences not to identify personal from real. I recall seeing people fight over a $50 wood stove; curtains and drapes; etc.

In the residential situation, even though it is out of the ordinary, if I considered it as personal property, then what about the hoist that opens the door? Is that also "personal property"? After all, I don't need a GDO to open a garage door, I can get out and lift it.

I am the appraiser and I am the one who makes the determination what does and what does not get considered in my appraisal report.

and if you are wrong in a court of law, would you be willing to accept the consequences before an appraisal board?

The right answer is "I don't know" and any appraiser should caveat same with remarks to that effect. Then make the assumption one way or the other. I do it all the time for Manf. homes, particularly those that contain the tongue and axles.

Personal Property is not included in the real value estimate. Mobile homes are treated as real property in jurisdictions that treat them as real property except when the clients instructions are in conflict and the appraiser has explained such conflicts, if any, elsewhere in the report. Attached fixtures are assumed to be part of the real property, unless explicitly stated otherwise.

 

[Webbed Feet]

A great time to ride the fence.

I would read the contract, find out how it was addressed in the contract, and if it was not mentioned, I would declare it personal property and state the contract was silent to the fixutre.

P.E.

I think "The Spud" (C.P.) made some very good posts about this. I also think you slid out of real estate appraising and into contract appraising by mistake.

One concept I think C.P. missed communicating clearly. Real estate sales and real estate appraising are two separate disciplines. Due to that I think he and you both went off point regarding this a little. C.P. only got off point as Mr. Carlsen took it off on a tangent.

The "intent" of the seller only matters to one individual buyer in one individual transaction for that specific sale of the seller to the buyer. In real estate appraising for an appraiser to be asking a property owner/borrower for a subject what the owner's "intent" is for a refinance assignment would be utterly meaningless. The appraiser is there to reflect the current market for the real estate on the basis of a hypothetical sale taking place as of the effective date. An appraiser is not a real estate agent that should be concerned with actual contractual matters, nor is the appraiser there representing either a buyer or a seller.

For an appraiser the only "intent" of importance would be the overall market's intent. That would mean finding significant numbers of sales of SFR properties with car hoists and looking to see if the typical intent was the hoist is a fixture or personal property. One subject having a completely unique item like this, absolutely no market evidence that can be used, is going to mean a judgement call on the part of the appraiser has to be made. The appraiser should avoid making a legal determination in this case as to if any court would declare the hoist to be a fixture or not. However, a detailed discussion of the hoist not being any normal SFR fixture, but an auto-repair trade fixture instead, would be called for along with the zoning requirements. For example, most SFR zoning in my areas do not allow retail car repair operations to be taking place in SFR homes.

Prior to the darn 03/2005 Fannie appraisal forms I would have instantly concluded, in the face of no market sales with hoists, using an EA that the market will not pay anything for the hoist as far as being anything other than personal property. Fannie has made unusual situations very difficult to deal with by circumventing needed USPAP tools the appraiser should have been able to invoke. So the only other option is surveying enough "Peers" so the appraiser is now within the actions of the appraiser's peers on this one. But again, USPAP has very stupidly defined "Peers" to only be other appraisers who have had assignments of SFR properties with car hoists.

I think the only way out is to ride the fence. Discuss that it is either personal property, or a worthless overimprovement, hence no adjustment and no declaration out of the appraiser as to which it is as it doesn't matter.

 

[Richard Carlsen]

C.P. only got off point as Mr. Carlsen took it off on a tangent.

Guilty .... but the point was brilliant!

​

 

[Mark K]

The following is a discussion I include in many R/W acquisition appraisals. Its for anyone's reference or use. I have no intention of changing or debating it since it has passed review on multiple levels and the state has found it acceptable. Feel free to use or ignore it.


PERSONAL PROPERTY

"Certain items accompanying real property can be identified as real or personal property. Personal property is generally non-compensable in the acquisition process. Other items that are attached and a part of the real property are included in the compensation.

Generally an item is a fixture if it is attached or affixed to the real estate or if it is adapted to the use of the real estate and it was the intent of the person attaching, affixing or adapting the item that it became part of the real estate. The intent of the person is the true test of whether or not an item is a fixture and this intent is not determined solely by the person’s stated interest. The person’s intent is determined by all surrounding circumstances. For example, if a person attaches an item to real estate in such a manner that removal would cause damage greater than the value of the item, the item is considered a fixture.

Certain items are considered fixtures because they are routinely included in the sale of real estate. Among these items are:

Lighting fixtures attached to walls or ceilings, water closets, vanities and other bathroom and plumbing fixtures including all well pumps, tanks, and water heaters, and built-in appliances including range/ovens, microwave ovens, dishwashers, garbage disposals, exhaust fan hoods, cooktops and trash compactors are all considered part of the real estate if they are built-in to the kitchen.

Curtain rods and attached blinds, gas logs, fireplace doors and inserts, attached shelving and bookcases, attached carpeting, furnace and air conditioning units, patio and other awnings attached to the real estate, outdoor lighting fixtures, permanently attached cooking grills, and landscape items including plantings, rocks, trellises, and landscape stones.

Also included are alarm systems, satellite dishes, attached antennae, fencing, yard barns on permanent foundations or of a size that is too large to be easily moved.

Items considered personal property include but are not limited to:

Freestanding appliances, unattached patio furniture, small yard barns on skids, satellite or TV receivers, home theater systems and speakers (not built-in), area rugs, freestanding electric fireplaces and mantles, firewood, propane tanks (if owned), fireplace tools, curtains, portable window air conditioning units, freestanding book cases, shelving units, and workbenches.

Items such as water softeners, wood stoves, and above ground pools can be either real or personal property depending on the method of attachment to the real estate and the amount of damage that would result from their removal, such as an above ground pool that has been installed partially into the ground or if it has a permanent deck surrounding it."




I think a car lift would fall into the last category and the owner would make the call.

 

[Richard Carlsen]

PERSONAL PROPERTY

"Certain items accompanying real property can be identified as real or personal property. Personal property is generally non-compensable in the acquisition process. Other items that are attached and a part of the real property are included in the compensation.

Generally an item is a fixture if it is attached or affixed to the real estate or if it is adapted to the use of the real estate and it was the intent of the person attaching, affixing or adapting the item that it became part of the real estate. The intent of the person is the true test of whether or not an item is a fixture and this intent is not determined solely by the person’s stated interest. The person’s intent is determined by all surrounding circumstances. For example, if a person attach's an item to real estate in such a manner that removal would cause damage greater than the value of the item, the item is considered a fixture.

Certain items are considered fixtures because they are routinely included in the sale of real estate. Among these items are:

Lighting fixtures attached to walls or ceilings, water closets, vanities and other bathroom and plumbing fixtures including all well pumps, tanks, and water heaters, and built-in appliances including range/ovens, microwave ovens, dishwashers, garbage disposals, exhaust fan hoods, cooktops and trash compactors are all considered part of the real estate if they are built-in to the kitchen.

Curtain rods and attached blinds, gas logs, fireplace doors and inserts, attached shelving and bookcases, attached carpeting, furnace and air conditioning units, patio and other awnings attached to the real estate, outdoor lighting fixtures, permanently attached cooking grills, and landscape items including plantings, rocks, trellises, and landscape stones.

Also included are alarm systems, satellite dishes, attached antennae, fencing, yard barns on permanent foundations or of a size that is too large to be easily moved.

Items considered personal property include but are not limited to:

Freestanding appliances, unattached patio furniture, small yard barns on skids, satellite or TV receivers, home theater systems and speakers (not built-in), area rugs, freestanding electric fireplaces and mantles, firewood, propane tanks (if owned), fireplace tools, curtains, portable window air conditioning units, freestanding book cases, shelving units, and workbenches.

Items such as water softeners, wood stoves, and above ground pools can be either real or personal property depending on the method of attachment to the real estate and the amount of damage that would result from their removal, such as an above ground pool that has been installed partially into the ground or if it has a permanent deck surrounding it."

WOW!

And this is a Summary Reporting form?

I still think my statement is sufficient: "* No consideration is given in the appraisal analysis for the contributory value of any of the following: personal property, mineral rights, standing timber or crops, if any."

Never once, in 5200+ appraisals, has anybody ever challanged my decision on what is or is not personal property.