AnonApprsr
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Joan, you should display the facts that NC just made known on that survey.
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Customary and reasonable fees - 90 days
- Thread starter Ann O'Rourke
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Meandering
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From the gound up we will be HEARD!
A survey of appraiser wishes for fees is useless to everyone. The fact is the Federal policy since 1997 has been that consumers could not be charged more than the Customary and Reasonable Appraiser Fee.
This is the Government's warranty to the people that they were not being ripped off.
Now, the question is do we want to say that the government was right and the people have not been ripped off? Or do we want to say that Appraisers actually require a different number which could be more or less than what the consumer has been paying up to the minute that we decide?
Then the questions will be, if we are just now deciding on what the C&R fee is, what was the schedule that set the fees the consumer was being charged based on, if those charges were not more than customary and reasonable as warranted by HUD since 1997?
We're chasing our tails with new surveys.
For more than a year appraisers could not set their fees for lending work. They may have on occasion been allowed to entertain negotiations for what they could be paid, but like I pointed out, HUD has maintained the Customary and Reasonable Fee is what the borrower pays, not what someone else pays the appraiser.
This is further cemented in the HUD1 and GFE new rules that require the complete recording of all fees paid toward the valuation to be recorded on line 801 under the name of the AMC alone.
The HR 4173 did not say that the appraiser will be paid a median, average or acceptable fee for the appraisal service in the neighborhood. It says that we will be paid the Customary and Reasonable Appraisal Fee, which there again, is the fee the borrower has been paying.
By using the exact term of "Customary and Reasonable Appraisal Fee", the new law has left out the opportunity of skimming the fee the borrower pays, before the appraiser gets paid.
That was the intent of the law, I know I worked with the Staffers when it was being written and researched the language and approved it then, and that language was able to survive the House and the Senate and all the lobbyists to make it into the final law.
What we need is a survey of all the HUD1s produced in the country over the past 90 days. HUD1s are confidential documents so we would need subpoenas to get them from borrowers, or we would need HUD to compile the information.
A survey of appraiser wishes for fees is useless to everyone. The fact is the Federal policy since 1997 has been that consumers could not be charged more than the Customary and Reasonable Appraiser Fee.
This is the Government's warranty to the people that they were not being ripped off.
Now, the question is do we want to say that the government was right and the people have not been ripped off? Or do we want to say that Appraisers actually require a different number which could be more or less than what the consumer has been paying up to the minute that we decide?
Then the questions will be, if we are just now deciding on what the C&R fee is, what was the schedule that set the fees the consumer was being charged based on, if those charges were not more than customary and reasonable as warranted by HUD since 1997?
We're chasing our tails with new surveys.
For more than a year appraisers could not set their fees for lending work. They may have on occasion been allowed to entertain negotiations for what they could be paid, but like I pointed out, HUD has maintained the Customary and Reasonable Fee is what the borrower pays, not what someone else pays the appraiser.
This is further cemented in the HUD1 and GFE new rules that require the complete recording of all fees paid toward the valuation to be recorded on line 801 under the name of the AMC alone.
The HR 4173 did not say that the appraiser will be paid a median, average or acceptable fee for the appraisal service in the neighborhood. It says that we will be paid the Customary and Reasonable Appraisal Fee, which there again, is the fee the borrower has been paying.
By using the exact term of "Customary and Reasonable Appraisal Fee", the new law has left out the opportunity of skimming the fee the borrower pays, before the appraiser gets paid.
That was the intent of the law, I know I worked with the Staffers when it was being written and researched the language and approved it then, and that language was able to survive the House and the Senate and all the lobbyists to make it into the final law.
What we need is a survey of all the HUD1s produced in the country over the past 90 days. HUD1s are confidential documents so we would need subpoenas to get them from borrowers, or we would need HUD to compile the information.
Meandering
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In the Real World, Customary and Resonable Live!
Wells Fargo and Rels Valuation Face Potential Home Evaluation Class Action
Two homeowners in Phoenix recently filed a lawsuit against Wells Fargo (NYSE: WFC) and its appraisal subsidiary Rels Valuation, claiming the mortgage giant illegally rigged the appraisal process and referred appraisal business to its subsidiary in a scheme to boost profits at the expense of homeowners.
The lawsuit, filed under the Racketeering Influenced and Corrupt Practices Act (RICO), the Real Estate Settlement Procedures Act (RESPA) and state law, claims that Wells Fargo requires homeowners to use Rels Valuation for appraisals. In return, Rels Valuation gives Wells Fargo visibility into and control over the appraisal process.
The suit claims Rels Valuation subcontracts the work to independent appraisers, demanding large price concessions then charges homeowners more than double the actual cost of the appraisal.
The plaintiffs, Grant and Lanie Gomez of Arizona, refinanced their home in March 2007. Wells Fargo required them to use Rels Valuation for their home appraisal. In the company's good faith estimate, Wells Fargo disclosed its relationship with Rels Valuation and estimated appraisal charges would range from $50 to $650.
The complaint states the Gomez's received an appraisal fee of $495 from Rels Valuation. The suit alleges Rels Valuation does not appraise properties and instead hired a third party to complete the work for $200 or less.
Rels Valuation only hires appraisers who accept $250 or less on an appraisal, the suit alleges, they then submit a bill to Wells Fargo for an amount that exceeds $350. The lawsuit alleges defendants netted more than one hundred million dollars in phony and unearned fees through the appraisal fee scheme.
The lawsuit claims the practices may affect upwards of hundreds of thousands of home loan customers. Multiply that by an inflated fee of $200 per transaction and over the course of a year Wells Fargo sees an additional $20 million or more for no work completed, the lawsuit alleges.
The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court in Phoenix, seeks to represent all homeowners who purchased or refinanced their home through Wells Fargo and Rels Valuation, and asks the court to award plaintiffs damages.
Wells Fargo and Rels Valuation Face Potential Home Evaluation Class Action
Two homeowners in Phoenix recently filed a lawsuit against Wells Fargo (NYSE: WFC) and its appraisal subsidiary Rels Valuation, claiming the mortgage giant illegally rigged the appraisal process and referred appraisal business to its subsidiary in a scheme to boost profits at the expense of homeowners.
The lawsuit, filed under the Racketeering Influenced and Corrupt Practices Act (RICO), the Real Estate Settlement Procedures Act (RESPA) and state law, claims that Wells Fargo requires homeowners to use Rels Valuation for appraisals. In return, Rels Valuation gives Wells Fargo visibility into and control over the appraisal process.
The suit claims Rels Valuation subcontracts the work to independent appraisers, demanding large price concessions then charges homeowners more than double the actual cost of the appraisal.
The plaintiffs, Grant and Lanie Gomez of Arizona, refinanced their home in March 2007. Wells Fargo required them to use Rels Valuation for their home appraisal. In the company's good faith estimate, Wells Fargo disclosed its relationship with Rels Valuation and estimated appraisal charges would range from $50 to $650.
The complaint states the Gomez's received an appraisal fee of $495 from Rels Valuation. The suit alleges Rels Valuation does not appraise properties and instead hired a third party to complete the work for $200 or less.
Rels Valuation only hires appraisers who accept $250 or less on an appraisal, the suit alleges, they then submit a bill to Wells Fargo for an amount that exceeds $350. The lawsuit alleges defendants netted more than one hundred million dollars in phony and unearned fees through the appraisal fee scheme.
The lawsuit claims the practices may affect upwards of hundreds of thousands of home loan customers. Multiply that by an inflated fee of $200 per transaction and over the course of a year Wells Fargo sees an additional $20 million or more for no work completed, the lawsuit alleges.
The lawsuit, filed in U.S. District Court in Phoenix, seeks to represent all homeowners who purchased or refinanced their home through Wells Fargo and Rels Valuation, and asks the court to award plaintiffs damages.
NC Appraising
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Marion,
I'm posting facts on what lenders actually pay for an appraisal. It's kinda hard to dispute printed facts from what the actual lender is paying for the appraisal.
I agree the "fee surveys" are not that important. AMCs are going to claim that who ever does it, it was skewed. Then if the AMC does one, appraisers are going to say the same thing.
That being said, if someone does not do it, then who is going to do it? How and who will set the C&R?
If anyone can find a fee sheet from a bank or from a AMC, HUD 1s, redact the name if need be, and lets keep this thread going!! 7,000+ readers.
The facts are the facts!!
I'm posting facts on what lenders actually pay for an appraisal. It's kinda hard to dispute printed facts from what the actual lender is paying for the appraisal.
I agree the "fee surveys" are not that important. AMCs are going to claim that who ever does it, it was skewed. Then if the AMC does one, appraisers are going to say the same thing.
That being said, if someone does not do it, then who is going to do it? How and who will set the C&R?
If anyone can find a fee sheet from a bank or from a AMC, HUD 1s, redact the name if need be, and lets keep this thread going!! 7,000+ readers.
The facts are the facts!!
GCJim
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I LOVE THIS......an important one to watch. May the force be with them, as this is certainly the jist of the MO by which the thieves and scoundrels of the AMC world steal from BOTH consumers and appraisers (coming AND going).
How can the plaintiffs lose?? Isn't this EXACTLY what has been, and is still, going on?
How can the plaintiffs lose?? Isn't this EXACTLY what has been, and is still, going on?
LACKLAND27
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AMCs have shown us what the market will bear!
In a free market appraisers will inevitable charge what the market will bear for an appraisal. So typically the free market will establish what is a reasonable and customary fee for an appraisal.
In the NYC area prior to the HVCC fees for a typical 1004 ranged from $300-$400. However the AMC’s are charging $425-$600 for the same service and often providing and inferior product.
The AMCs have shown us that the market will bear these prices. So therefore an AMC’s fee schedule, charged to their customers would be a good indicator of what is reasonable and customary. So as of Oct 1, 2010 I am raising me fees to $450 for a typical 1004!
Thanks to the AMC phone monkeys ……..
In a free market appraisers will inevitable charge what the market will bear for an appraisal. So typically the free market will establish what is a reasonable and customary fee for an appraisal.
In the NYC area prior to the HVCC fees for a typical 1004 ranged from $300-$400. However the AMC’s are charging $425-$600 for the same service and often providing and inferior product.
The AMCs have shown us that the market will bear these prices. So therefore an AMC’s fee schedule, charged to their customers would be a good indicator of what is reasonable and customary. So as of Oct 1, 2010 I am raising me fees to $450 for a typical 1004!
Thanks to the AMC phone monkeys ……..
Meandering
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Lackland,
Your missing the point that when it comes to appraisals for Lending, what the appraiser has been paid is what the appraiser has been paid,
the customary and reasonable fee is what the borrower has paid, as warrantied by HUD that the borrower would not pay more than C&R.
Do not confuse these two issues, as they are important distinctions in FEDERAL POLICY and the big egos of appraisers want to make believe we are the ones that control the customary and resonable fee when in fact the lenders do.
There is no Free Market for C&R Appraisal Fees, because the lenders set them and then charge the borrowers. The borrower's do not get to negotiate it or pick the Appraiser or pick the AMC for that matter. All of this is verticle control of the money by the lenders.
GC Jim,
The lawsuit was settled out of court. Check with the attorneys, they will not disclose the settlement. So there is nothing more to watch on the Gomez suit,
However,
There is the ability to open many, many lawsuites.
Know some borrowers that over paid for appraisals and then the loan did not go through?
Your missing the point that when it comes to appraisals for Lending, what the appraiser has been paid is what the appraiser has been paid,
the customary and reasonable fee is what the borrower has paid, as warrantied by HUD that the borrower would not pay more than C&R.
Do not confuse these two issues, as they are important distinctions in FEDERAL POLICY and the big egos of appraisers want to make believe we are the ones that control the customary and resonable fee when in fact the lenders do.
There is no Free Market for C&R Appraisal Fees, because the lenders set them and then charge the borrowers. The borrower's do not get to negotiate it or pick the Appraiser or pick the AMC for that matter. All of this is verticle control of the money by the lenders.
GC Jim,
The lawsuit was settled out of court. Check with the attorneys, they will not disclose the settlement. So there is nothing more to watch on the Gomez suit,
However,
There is the ability to open many, many lawsuites.
Know some borrowers that over paid for appraisals and then the loan did not go through?
Caligirl
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- Jan 27, 2006
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- Certified General Appraiser
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- California
Remember the 'good old days' when RICO applied to gangsters? LOL
Chicaneries and shennanigans paid for by the American taxpayer who is likely upside down on their mortgage. It is an outrage.
Chicaneries and shennanigans paid for by the American taxpayer who is likely upside down on their mortgage. It is an outrage.
Meandering
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This is an open lawsuit. I spoke to the attorney.
Date Filed: January 12, 2009
Court: U.S. District Court
Location: Washington
Ticker Symbol: BAC
Washington homeowners filed a class-action lawsuit against Countrywide, claiming the lending giant illegal rigged the appraisal process in a scheme to boost profits at the expense of homeowners and independent appraisers.
The lawsuit, which seeks to represent all homeowners who purchased or refinanced their home through Countrywide and LandSafe, claims Countrywide forces homeowners to use its wholly owned subsidiary LandSafe for appraisals.
According to the suit, LandSafe turns the appraisal work to a third-party, demands they follow the developed fee structure and if they refuse, adds them to a field review list that identifies appraisers Countrywide will not work with.
The lawsuit claims LandSafe subcontracts much if its appraisal work to a network of independent appraisers, but offers them rates as low as $140 per appraisal. The company then marks the costs of the appraisal back as high as $410 when invoicing homeowners.
Plaintiffs claim the practice is damaging to homeowners who pay the inflated fee and appraisers, who are forced to work below market standards or risk losing work in the future.
If you purchased or refinanced your home through Countrywide and LandSafe you can join this suit. You can also contact attorneys at (206) 623-7292.
http://www.hbsslaw.com/cases-and-investigations/CFChomeowners
Date Filed: January 12, 2009
Court: U.S. District Court
Location: Washington
Ticker Symbol: BAC
Washington homeowners filed a class-action lawsuit against Countrywide, claiming the lending giant illegal rigged the appraisal process in a scheme to boost profits at the expense of homeowners and independent appraisers.
The lawsuit, which seeks to represent all homeowners who purchased or refinanced their home through Countrywide and LandSafe, claims Countrywide forces homeowners to use its wholly owned subsidiary LandSafe for appraisals.
According to the suit, LandSafe turns the appraisal work to a third-party, demands they follow the developed fee structure and if they refuse, adds them to a field review list that identifies appraisers Countrywide will not work with.
The lawsuit claims LandSafe subcontracts much if its appraisal work to a network of independent appraisers, but offers them rates as low as $140 per appraisal. The company then marks the costs of the appraisal back as high as $410 when invoicing homeowners.
Plaintiffs claim the practice is damaging to homeowners who pay the inflated fee and appraisers, who are forced to work below market standards or risk losing work in the future.
If you purchased or refinanced your home through Countrywide and LandSafe you can join this suit. You can also contact attorneys at (206) 623-7292.
http://www.hbsslaw.com/cases-and-investigations/CFChomeowners
eld2310
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- Washington
Marion, back in the day of having to chase down my own fees when mortgage companies said escrow paid it, escrow said they sent it back to mortgage, mortgage said escrow must be mistaken, etc., I always found it easy to get a copy of the HUD1 from the escrow company so I could settle the argument. This was before the payee was an AMC, though, so it might be harder now.
Is there really not a central place that HUD1's are filed? I guess I always assumed that since it's called a HUD1 that it was sent to HUD at some point. Do they really only exist in the files of the principals? What about with FHA loans? Surely FHA has copies somewhere that could be obtained using the Freedom of Information Act or something.
I would be happy to make a list of all my borrowers and their mailing addresses for a master list if I just know exactly what you need, from what time period, and where to send it. If a class action suit starts, I'm sure I could get our local news to pick up the story and provide a link on their website for more people to send in their information, too.
Edited to say: I believe most AMCs charge the homeowner up front for the appraisal. Is their fee/our fee even shown on the HUD1 if it's an item paid outside of closing? That's a scary thought on many levels.
Is there really not a central place that HUD1's are filed? I guess I always assumed that since it's called a HUD1 that it was sent to HUD at some point. Do they really only exist in the files of the principals? What about with FHA loans? Surely FHA has copies somewhere that could be obtained using the Freedom of Information Act or something.
I would be happy to make a list of all my borrowers and their mailing addresses for a master list if I just know exactly what you need, from what time period, and where to send it. If a class action suit starts, I'm sure I could get our local news to pick up the story and provide a link on their website for more people to send in their information, too.
Edited to say: I believe most AMCs charge the homeowner up front for the appraisal. Is their fee/our fee even shown on the HUD1 if it's an item paid outside of closing? That's a scary thought on many levels.
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