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Customary and reasonable fees - 90 days

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I think you can look at both and come to a similar conclusion. Fees, at the current level, are not sustainable for the health of the profession (which I think there is unanimous agreement on... at least here on the forum).

The question is, what is the best correction-method to arrive at a sustainable fee structure? An imposed fee or a market fee?

Both could do it.
The market rate certainly would do it (eventually).
The imposed rate would probably lead to an over-supply in the slow periods and an under-supply in the busy periods.

The imposed fee would not do anything as far as enhancing quality. I'd like to read examples of where price-controls has resulted in higher quality (of anything)?

The market rate could lead to improved quality if the demand for quality increases (so far, its the minimum that is required and the market rate for that is $225-$250 for appraisers who bid for AMC work).
Personally, I would like to see lenders lock in on set fees for standard reports rather than put each order out to bid. In San Diego that means the standard URAR fee would be $375-$400. If AMC's or lenders made a practice of putting each order out to bid there would be a good chance (say 100% odds) some appraisers would cut their fees to get orders taking work away from myself and other appraisers who hold to the customary and reasonable fees. Why would lenders and AMC's care about a lower fee if the borrower pays? To minimize the borrowers loan costs and help offset the AMC fee.

If lenders and AMC's take bids on atypical reports that would be understandable, but good luck getting any of those orders at a reasonable fee. Many appraisers have already proven they are willing to perform full appraisals for less than $250 so what's to stop them from quoting low fees in the new environment to get the order?
 
Denis,
AMCs love your bidding theory and I bet they are 100% agree with what you are advocating. The bidding is going to perpetuate the AMCs manipulation on appraisal fees based on lowest bids which has been detrimental to appraisal qualities and disservice to the public.
Bidding is not what the new law requires from lenders and their agents to do in establishing a reasonable and customary appraisal fee. It has indicated the sources for establishment of reasonable and customary fee and that is not bidding fee or the AMC fee. The new law doesn't want the AMC or lenders to auction appraisals and assign them to lowest bidders. That is what we already had but didn't work.
The bidding system works very good for two types of appraisers:
1- The appraiser is incompetent and cannot compete with a competent appraiser if the assignee pays a reasonable fee for the appraisal. In the bidding system, the incompetent appraiser can push away the qualified appraiser and grab the assignment.
2- The appraiser has an appraisal mill with many trainees and can bit low on multiple assignments and reassign them to trainees.
I am sure you are not neither of those two so why are you vehemently advocating the bidding system that is going to spoil the whole system?
The law says that lenders and their agents have to establish a reasonable appraisal fees . It also says that AMSc have to disclose to lenders how much they have paid to appraisers and how much they have taken for their administrative cost in every appraisal report.
It is not too difficult to establish reasonable appraisal fee. Market sources such as VA, FHA, Relocation agencies, attorneys, accountants are out there. FHA occasinally uses independent fee appraisers for field review or full appraisal and I am sure it has a list of appraisal fee for each region.
 
[QUOTE=Denis DeSaix;The alternative (as I see it) is to have some authority set the fees. How that would be achieved is beyond me.

FHA did that for years and, I believe, VA is still doing it. I think it worked very well.

Another alternative would be for the AMC to charge their own fee and let the appraiser negotiate with the borrower for his or her own fee.
 
Moh-

First,

The bidding system works very good for two types of appraisers:
1- The appraiser is incompetent and cannot compete with a competent appraiser if the assignee pays a reasonable fee for the appraisal. In the bidding system, the incompetent appraiser can push away the qualified appraiser and grab the assignment.
2- The appraiser has an appraisal mill with many trainees and can bit low on multiple assignments and reassign them to trainees.
I am sure you are not neither of those two so why are you vehemently advocating the bidding system that is going to spoil the whole system?
(my bold)

I believe you are sincere in the bolded statement and I appreciate it.

My position is not new. I've long advocated for appraisers to act as business people. I've long advocated for less (not more) regulation regarding our activities. I've been on the losing side of that argument without a doubt.

My business (like most everyone else) is significantly down post-HVCC. You probably recall, when HVCC was first circulated, I was one of the few who were vocal in opposition to the idea. I saw more negative consequences then positive ones. And, while I did not predict with any precision exactly how the HVCC would play out, I did predict the outcome: The elimination a lot of good business relationships that appraisers built-up over the years and a significant reduction in income (for those whose primary business model was mortgage-related appraisals... as mine was).
There were two sides of the quality coin: There were bottom-feeder brokers/clients who were looking for someone to make the deal happen. There were also good clients who wanted an honest and credible appraisal and who valued appraisers who could provide such reports. I lost a lot of those kinds of clients; I suspect you did as well (as did many).

So we couldn't police ourselves sufficiently such that not enough of us had the backbone (or the ethical character) to resist being pressured by a broker. Because of that we were clamoring (and received) a process that insulated us from the bad-guy client (HVCC).

Now, clients being able to ask for bids sounds fair and reasonable to me. But you argue it won't work and cite a couple of reasons:
The appraiser is incompetent and cannot compete with a competent appraiser if the assignee pays a reasonable fee for the appraisal. In the bidding system, the incompetent appraiser can push away the qualified appraiser and grab the assignment.
In a bidding system, the client gets what it pays for. If quality is a requirement and the quality cannot be obtained at the low fee, then won't fees go up as clients discriminate in their choice of appraisal-providers, rewarding those who produce quality and skipping those who don't? By mandating a minimum fee, how does a lender use its fee to discriminate in favor of better quality. Do you think everything shifts-right on the quality scale because the fees go up (I don't think you do and I certainly don't). The same poor quality appraisers will be competing for the same jobs as they do now. The only difference is that they will be paid more.

The appraiser has an appraisal mill with many trainees and can bit low on multiple assignments and reassign them to trainees.
They could do that before. Now, many states (like ours) has regulations limiting the number of trainees a supervisor can have, and requiring the supervisor to be a certain level (certified, for example).
And, if they want to violate that regulation, won't they make more money if the fees are arbitrarily increased? How does a mandatory minimum fee eliminate an appraiser who intentionally wants to act unethically? I'll tell you; it doesn't. What it does do is increase the reward for gaming the system.

Problem: Too many bad appraisers succumbing to client-pressure and acting unethically.
Solution: Create a third-party firewall to separate helpless appraisers from big, bad clients.
Result: We are separated and third-party firewall is being paid by a slice of the pie that was formerly ours.

Problem: HVCC-enabled AMCs are forcing us to accept low fees.
Solution: Pass legislation that rewards poor business people (and, maybe someone out there can actually make a profit at $225/appraisal) by mandating increased fees. This will equally benefit incompetent appraisers as well as competent ones.
Result: We are now arguing how to measure reasonable and customary fees.

Problem: How does one determine a reasonable and customary fee?
Potential Solution: Rather than have AMCs dictate fees, why not have appraisers bid on the fees and establish reasonable ranges that way?
Argument against: No- there are too many bad appraisers who will low-ball us good appraisers. Enough such that we (the good ones) won't be able to compete against them. We need another solution that ensures we get paid closer to what we want rather than relying on what another appraiser is willing to take.

How many levels of regulation and guidelines to we need to protect us from ourselves?

AMCs love your bidding theory and I bet they are 100% agree with what you are advocating.

They may or may not be in love with my theory. In the short-run it may be in their advantage. In the long-run I don't think it will be.
But I also think this: AMCs would like nothing more than to have a set-fee schedule that is imposed upon them because a regulatory requirement; it won't significantly harm them. What it will do (IMNSHO) is eliminate much of the quality leverage that you, I, and others still have and can use in our favor.

Anyway, that's my opinion. I'm much more confident in my ability to earn a higher fee/income than what I'll be able to earn relying on some regulation or mandate.
There is obviously a contingent of seasoned, experienced, thoughtful, and competent appraisers who disagree with me. :new_smile-l:

I suppose time will tell.
 
Personally, I would like to see lenders lock in on set fees for standard reports rather than put each order out to bid. In San Diego that means the standard URAR fee would be $375-$400.

You make a good point. The few lenders I work for have a set minimum fee and it is much higher than the AMCs pay.
My fear is that a mandated minimum might actually lower their incentive to differentiate their fees.

Many appraisers have already proven they are willing to perform full appraisals for less than $250 so what's to stop them from quoting low fees in the new environment to get the order?

If they are willing (and able) to do so, why shouldn't they be able to?
That's a fundamental question.
And in advocating for their right to bid-at-their-best-price, I understand that they will beat me because I cannot bid at that level.
 
Here is an example of what our profession is degrading toward:

http://appraisersforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=174

Who is worse: The appraiser who accepts a low fee of $200 or the appraiser who intentionally acts unethically in his/her business dealings with clients to earn a one-time $200+ fee?

Anyone have a suggestion for new legislation that stops appraisers from embarrassing themselves and the profession by actively advocating unethical business practices on a national forum?
 
Yogi and Karl

"This is like deja vu all over again."

Here is the copy from FHA-2009-28

FHA-approved lenders must ensure that:
• FHA Appraisers are not prohibited by the lender, AMC or other third party, from recording the fee the appraiser was paid for the performance of the appraisal in the appraisal report.
FHA Roster appraisers are compensated at a rate that is customary and reasonable for appraisal services performed in the market area of the property being appraised.
• The fee for the actual completion of an FHA appraisal may not include a fee for management of the appraisal process or any activity other than the performance of the appraisal.
• Any management fees charged by an AMC or other third party must be for actual services related to ordering, processing or reviewing of appraisals performed for FHA financing.
• AMC and other third party fees must not exceed what is customary and reasonable for such services provided in the market area of the property being appraised.

We all know the house folded.

Like Ann says, however, nobody knows what is going to happen.

When Fannie Mae recently issued new directives about interior photos including all baths, appraisers got sudden urgent bulletins, memos and directives etc urging immediate compliance.

Mm-mm, no urgent e-mails in my mail box about fees. I guess I will just have to take Ann's advice, and take a wait and see attitude. But FHA 2009-28 made no difference in AMC fees in my neighborhood.

The spread between the fee of the largest AMC fee in my market and VA is $170.00 ($500 vs $330.00) The spread between the largest AMC trolling for orders in my market is $300.00 ($500.00 vs $200.00)

One thing you can count on is the legal fees are going to be high this month at every AMC.

One last thought. I, for one, worked hard to be accepted on the VA panel. The VA rate in Missoula is $500.00. I receive equal or greater fees from other clients I have developed. I resent this great leveling that may be in the offing. I review the work of appraisers working for low rates and the clients are for the most part getting what they are paying for. I am sick of driving around taking pictures in a field review when the original appraiser snapped pictures out of MLS No good can come when fees are imposed. Is the $330.00 appraiser suddenly going to do $500.00 work when the fees start rolling in? Every appraiser has the abilty to maximize their revenues. Why should those stupid enough to do work for $330.00 and $200.00 receive as much as I do for a VA appraisal after I waited for four years to get on the panel?

Check out Mr. Marx:

In a higher phase of communist society, after the enslaving subordination of the individual to the division of labor, and therewith also the antithesis between mental and physical labor, has vanished; after labor has become not only a means of life but life's prime want; after the productive forces have also increased with the all-around development of the individual, and all the springs of co-operative wealth flow more abundantly—only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its banners: From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs![1][2][3]


Doug
 
Moh-
By mandating a minimum fee, how does a lender use its fee to discriminate in favor of better quality. Do you think everything shifts-right on the quality scale because the fees go up (I don't think you do and I certainly don't). The same poor quality appraisers will be competing for the same jobs as they do now. The only difference is that they will be paid more

In my mind, this is how it would go if it were a perfect plan:

1. All appraisers are paid equally for the same job, even the incomptetent ones.
2. Because all appraiser's fees are the same, lenders and AMCs no longer count "cheap" as the #1 (and possibly only) attribute in selecting which appraiser will get the job.
3. Lenders and AMCs start looking at quality since they're already paying for it.
4. Incompetent appraisers stop getting assignments and are forced to either do better work or crawl back under the rock from whence they came.
5. Natural selection ensues. The weak perish, the strong survive. :)

In summary: It's not that raising fees will automatically increase quality, it's that raising fees will pit the good appraisers against the bad appraisers on a level playing field, to be judged based on their merits rather than their willingness to crank out appraisal-like reports every 12 to 24 hours for whatever someone's willing to pay them.
 
Denis, You said it all when you said USPAP is the minimum requirement. That is what the problem is. The AMCs are willing to settle for the minimum and in my opinion the minimum is not good enough. Too many AMC appraisers work hard trying to figure out how to by-pass steps in order to be profitable thus violating USPAP in many ways. The AMCs don't care if the appraiser violates USPAP. They just want the minimum quality appraisal they can get for the lowest fee they have to pay. USPAP does not apply to the AMCs
 
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