Draft Reports

[Mark to market]

Terrel

I do not think the issue is reporting a value per se, but rather is the value reported in a USPSP compliant manner. The following three paragraphs are quotes from you, where you admit you would 1) lie to avoid being tied to a value opinion, and 2) not sign a value opinion with the express intent to avoid being tied to it so you would not face sanctions. My take is even the most lenient would find ethical issues here.

Quote from Terrel
And of course, AO 21 never tells us how anyone will be the wiser. Will the neighbor record your voice answer? Ask you to write it down? I'd never admit I spoke on the subject to begin with. You could only face sanction by actually having some evidence that in fact you said what was said

Quote from Terrel
DUH! BUT IF THE DRAFT AIN'T SIGNED HOW DO YOU GET THE BLAME FOR IT???????????????????????????????????????????? Who is going to be able to tie YOUR NAME to THAT DOCUMENT?

Quote from Terrel
what if it's incomplete? Back to one of my questions....what if there is no name on it???? just the summary sheet consisting of one page with numbers??? How can the state ever prove you provided

 

[Terrel L. Shields]

Do you really think skippies give a crap about signing it if they can leave it blank? That's the point. Everyone goes a gaagaa over drafts although USPAP allows them, then it becomes one of those issues where "they are allowed but there isn't any way to do them..." Bull. They are done every day by appraisers and some don't provide them.

So answer these questions straight. Be honest with yourself. First, when you get an assignment, have you ever seen something that gives you pause about the value, and you go back to the client for guidance? Did you write up a full blown report saying you think it won't fly or just call them? The loonies above prance around the issue like it is "scope of work"...so where does SOW end and appraisal start?

If it is an oral report, you don't have to have a signed certification prior to reporting it. Further, say your client wants to look over your shoulder...why not? You reference your "Work file" as being available don't you? So you WON'T let your client look in your work file before you create this report?? But you WILL give them a heads up that it won't go secondary market, or its in a flood plain, or it has an encroachment..and you try to say that it isn't an appraisal at this point? Are you appraising or underwriting?

But when your client has 340 separate tax parcels operated as one property to value and during the course of the work the client discovers 23 of them are in a separate close held corporation and don't need appraised and contacts you to take them out of the report you hunker over your desk and say no,no, I must appraise them all then I'll go back and do a new assignment with 317 parcels??? Or I'll write this huge report and present as a draft then redo it? Such is intellectual fraud.

The AO example is another stupid hat trick by USPAP. First, say my annoying neighbor badgers me for a value on some tract near him at the barbeque. I comply with AO 21 and mealy mouth some platitude about "several sales nearby blah blah support.." vs saying, 'probably sell for $x" Say the neighbor then sues you. You admit you discussed the market and you claim you said "several sales nearby blah blah support.." The neighbor said, "No No, he told me that it was worth X dollars!" It is your word against his. Me? I will never admit I told the stupid ahole anything. why should I? So it ain't gonna matter what is SAID. It will matter only what the neighbor THOUGHT was said and what he thought was what HE WANTED TO HEAR...how can you prove you complied with USPAP....rush right home and write it all down? how stupid.

Again, if you provide the information orally, it is going to be impossible to prove that it was provided unless they have a recording of you saying so. So when USPAP says it is going to do this to you or do that to you if you make a supposed miscue in AO21- its blowing smoke. My point is and remains prove it. We agonize over doing the simplest of things as if some horrible crime against humanity when it is a non-event.

A piece of unsigned paper in your hand proves nothing nor who provided it. An oral statement whether crouched in USPAPspeak or simply blurted out isn't going to make a hoot. You gonna go to court on it? If there is no one in the forest to hear it, will a falling tree make a sound? Nobody is going to get hauled before the USPAP police over a heads up, an oral reportt, a statement at a barbeque, a scap of paper. Only an idiot would admit authorship.

Your implication that

the most lenient would find ethical issues here.

implies something I find insulting nevertheless, I find it incredibly naive of both ASB and you to think that USPAP can work in a vacuum. A draft and an oral report cannot be separated and USPAP treats them much the same. I have a reasonable time to fulfill USPAP requirements to create the necessary workfile. No one suggests such documents won't be created. As for AO 21 - it is another stupid hoax. Again, show me the real lawsuit over some appraiser who blabbed on the golf course and got sued. Urban legend. Never happened.

 

[Fred]

Do you really think skippies give a crap about signing it if they can leave it blank? That's the point. Everyone goes a gaagaa over drafts although USPAP allows them,

Are you suggesting we should use Skippy as a model for our behavior. FWIW, I think you are going "gaagaa" over this.

Yes, USPAP allows "drafts" and non "drafts" equally - as long as they are labelled restricted use, summary or self-contanined and include signed certifications, etc.

But when your client has 340 separate tax parcels operated as one property to value and during the course of the work the client discovers 23 of them are in a separate close held corporation and don't need appraised and contacts you to take them out of the report you hunker over your desk and say no,no, I must appraise them all

I don't see what this has to do with "drafts."

 

[The Warrior Monk]

So answer these questions straight. Be honest with yourself. First, when you get an assignment, have you ever seen something that gives you pause about the value, and you go back to the client for guidance?

I'm not sure what you mean here. Are you asking the client a general question, or are you giving the client an indication of value?

Did you write up a full blown report saying you think it won't fly or just call them?

It is not the appraisal's job to care if the deal flies. If I cared, I'd be selling, not appraising.

The loonies above prance around the issue like it is "scope of work"...so where does SOW end and appraisal start?

This issue is when does the appraisal start, but rather the communication of the results to the client (i.e., the draft).

Again, if you provide the information orally, it is going to be impossible to prove that it was provided unless they have a recording of you saying so. So when USPAP says it is going to do this to you or do that to you if you make a supposed miscue in AO21- its blowing smoke. My point is and remains prove it. We agonize over doing the simplest of things as if some horrible crime against humanity when it is a non-event.

Is the standard going to be it's okay to steal cookies from the cookie jar when nobody is looking?

 

[PropertyEconomics]

Do you really think skippies give a crap about signing it if they can leave it blank? That's the point. Everyone goes a gaagaa over drafts although USPAP allows them, then it becomes one of those issues where "they are allowed but there isn't any way to do them..." Bull. They are done every day by appraisers and some don't provide them.

So answer these questions straight. Be honest with yourself. First, when you get an assignment, have you ever seen something that gives you pause about the value, and you go back to the client for guidance? Did you write up a full blown report saying you think it won't fly or just call them? The loonies above prance around the issue like it is "scope of work"...so where does SOW end and appraisal start?

If it is an oral report, you don't have to have a signed certification prior to reporting it. Further, say your client wants to look over your shoulder...why not? You reference your "Work file" as being available don't you? So you WON'T let your client look in your work file before you create this report?? But you WILL give them a heads up that it won't go secondary market, or its in a flood plain, or it has an encroachment..and you try to say that it isn't an appraisal at this point? Are you appraising or underwriting?

But when your client has 340 separate tax parcels operated as one property to value and during the course of the work the client discovers 23 of them are in a separate close held corporation and don't need appraised and contacts you to take them out of the report you hunker over your desk and say no,no, I must appraise them all then I'll go back and do a new assignment with 317 parcels??? Or I'll write this huge report and present as a draft then redo it? Such is intellectual fraud.

The AO example is another stupid hat trick by USPAP. First, say my annoying neighbor badgers me for a value on some tract near him at the barbeque. I comply with AO 21 and mealy mouth some platitude about "several sales nearby blah blah support.." vs saying, 'probably sell for $x" Say the neighbor then sues you. You admit you discussed the market and you claim you said "several sales nearby blah blah support.." The neighbor said, "No No, he told me that it was worth X dollars!" It is your word against his. Me? I will never admit I told the stupid ahole anything. why should I? So it ain't gonna matter what is SAID. It will matter only what the neighbor THOUGHT was said and what he thought was what HE WANTED TO HEAR...how can you prove you complied with USPAP....rush right home and write it all down? how stupid.

Again, if you provide the information orally, it is going to be impossible to prove that it was provided unless they have a recording of you saying so. So when USPAP says it is going to do this to you or do that to you if you make a supposed miscue in AO21- its blowing smoke. My point is and remains prove it. We agonize over doing the simplest of things as if some horrible crime against humanity when it is a non-event.

A piece of unsigned paper in your hand proves nothing nor who provided it. An oral statement whether crouched in USPAPspeak or simply blurted out isn't going to make a hoot. You gonna go to court on it? If there is no one in the forest to hear it, will a falling tree make a sound? Nobody is going to get hauled before the USPAP police over a heads up, an oral reportt, a statement at a barbeque, a scap of paper. Only an idiot would admit authorship.

Your implication that implies something I find insulting nevertheless, I find it incredibly naive of both ASB and you to think that USPAP can work in a vacuum. A draft and an oral report cannot be separated and USPAP treats them much the same. I have a reasonable time to fulfill USPAP requirements to create the necessary workfile. No one suggests such documents won't be created. As for AO 21 - it is another stupid hoax. Again, show me the real lawsuit over some appraiser who blabbed on the golf course and got sued. Urban legend. Never happened.

So in essence USPAP means nothing and you can do whatever you wish to do AS LONG AS you dont sign the document or get caught? Good luck with that one.
I dont know if anyone has been sued yet or appeared before their board yet but do many of these and Im sure you will get to one or the other (court or your board) in due time. And the board or court WILL find your file via subpoena, or will you have destroyed that also?
The post reeks of unethical behavior and frankly I dont think you are unethical at all. Perhaps skewed on this topic but I rest assured and have always believed your ethics are quite sound.

As an excercise, read your post above as though I had written it, then what say ye?

 

[Terrel L. Shields]

The gist of this thread by those above is that if a number is revealed, even if it is secondary to why you are working with the client and/or client representatives indicates to me that none of you have had to rely upon a CPA or a lawyer who is working on the same project to figure out what properties are or are not including in a report.

Several times over the past years I have worked on estate appraisals where additional property is found during or after I am developing the report. Further, the property may or may not be in simple tax parcels. In a very complex document, I am working (in this case) with a lawyer and a CPA to try and determine what belongs where. We have found property in the name of a town and about 12 different corporations. Each item on each property has to be vetted to determine if that particular improvement is part of the estate. If it is, it has to be valued. If not, it gets tossed out. In some cases, the CPA and/or lawyer cannot determine WHAT is on the property and/or unit without me doing the research thru some very complex books describing the individual properties, or visa versa, they may discover a particular improvement needs kicked out. In other words, after valuing a large parcel which contained 3 dwellings, a runway, and 4 commercial buildings and about 23 agricultural buildings, it was determined that two of the dwellings have to be kicked out along with the commercial buildings which were built on the decedants property but were not part of his estate. Such estates have 6 months + 60 days to submit the numbers.

But even at this late date we are juggling numbers. With 20 such parcels totalling in 8 or 9 figures, and time running out, are you really going to write 20 separate appraisals or are you going to write a master appraisal with 20 subdocuments? And when you share the info you have with others you are working with, are you going to swamp the report with fluff in terror of USPAP? The data is all in the file. The report once it is proofed will go in file and an original created with a single master certification and introduction. To do so will reduce the size of the report(s) by over 500 pages...and if I withhold each subdocument from the CPA's they will not have time to check my work for mistakes nor do their job of filing the return in a timely manner.

Im sure you will get to one or the other (court or your board) in due time.

If that violates USPAP , then sic 'em poochie...