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Follow up on the Solar discussion from an Installer

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That makes solar a better investment than a swimming pool in my market.
 
By coincidence I might make an adjustment for a solar PV system at about the same rate as a swimming pool or offset a swimming pool adjustment for a solar adjustment.

It's probably no coincidence that one might find swimming pools and solar panels in the same region.
 
You can play with the numbers all you want, means nothing. Buyers don’t walk around with calculators when they are purchasing homes. Some may do some of the math later when they’re back at their home, but the accuracy of the knowledge of what to compute varies tremendously.

The value or potential for value and the savings, real or imagined, of solar energy is going to differ in every part of the country.

Here, most buyers recognize that roofs are going to need to be replaced about every 20 years or so, and that it will snow, and that it will rain and that it will sleet and hail more so than in southern California or more arid regions.

So when buyers look at the roof and see moss growing in the shade of the solar panels or leaves collecting against the stand-offs that hold the panels, they start to think the shingles will not last very long and that they will need to get up there and remove the debris so that rain and snow melt can properly drain from the roof. No numbers needed, just looking at roofs with solar panels tells anyone it is going to be more expensive to repair or replace the roof because the solar panels are there. Solar will not release them of getting a bill from the electricity company, so there will always be, at least, the baseline electric bill. So even if they have optimal sunlight and production of the solar panels, you’re saying they could save $100 or $200 a month on their electric bill. Well, for $100 a month in savings, that’s like #3.33 a day. Or, at current prices, 1 gallon of gasoline a day, or less than a package of cigarettes, or less than have the price difference between steak and chicken. And that’s provided the tax assessment isn’t higher because of those solar panels. Well, for about $30 they could go to the hardware store and get a water heater timer and save just about that much by only heating their hot water a few hours a day, if they have an electric water heater.

I know of three homes here that were sold with solar panels and shortly after the sale the buyers removed the panels and did not replace them.

I can understand how homeowners would think it bad for the roof, and it does have it's ups and downs. In the summer it protects the roof from the sun and extends the life of shingles, of course in the winter it may not allow them to dry sufficiently. It's still the perception. Here in SoCal a wood shingled roof is a bit rare.

I understand your $3.33 thought but solar is not just a now thing. Here in SoCal one of our electric providers announced that they expect 8% electricity rate increases every year for the next 5 years and 5 to 7 annually after that. So what is only $3.33 today ..... is significantly more year after year. Even if $200 a month is still $2400 per year. Would you turn down $2400 a year if someone offered it to you?
 
It would be more interesting if the electric companies were publishing how much electricity is being contributed back to them from solar paneled homes. So far all the numbers are only comming from builders and solar installers/providers, and appear to be based on the maxium voltage available from a certian number of panels. But, it's impossible to get maxium voltage from a stationary panel system that is not tracking the sun. There is a swiss company making parabolic reflectors for residential use, that track the sun and that generate both electric and hot water which looks more promising than panels, if you don't mind a 8ft wide mirror dish, 20 feet above your back yard.

Once you're in an area that has a danger or freezing, you can't make solar hotwater year round without a gycol system. The water tank alone for a gycol system is in the neighborhood of $3,300 when a standard electric water tank is around $400.

Until the electric companies start publishing the returns their receiving in wattage, and what that is equating to in real dollars to the homeowners, there is no way to guess what the income of solar panels are to the homeowners.

There is a push for appraisers to say, across the board, that solar panels add value to a home, and in some areas they may. But the hard evidence of the return on the investment is going to differ across the country, making across the board assessments of value added, impossible. And as long as each electric company can fund the buy back of energy differently, the value of the investment is going to change within regions based on which electric company services the property and what that electric company's policy is for buy backs of electricity.

It is just something we must all wrestle with when the opportunity presents it. But like Pete, in this region, we are not seeing additional value in resales of homes with geothermal heat and like I said, three sales here with solar panels and the new owners removed the panels, so there was no real or preceived value from those panels.
 
I can understand how homeowners would think it bad for the roof, and it does have it's ups and downs. In the summer it protects the roof from the sun and extends the life of shingles, of course in the winter it may not allow them to dry sufficiently. It's still the perception. Here in SoCal a wood shingled roof is a bit rare.

I understand your $3.33 thought but solar is not just a now thing. Here in SoCal one of our electric providers announced that they expect 8% electricity rate increases every year for the next 5 years and 5 to 7 annually after that. So what is only $3.33 today ..... is significantly more year after year. Even if $200 a month is still $2400 per year. Would you turn down $2400 a year if someone offered it to you?
Spartacus,

Your numbers are your numbers. Your company has clients that have had their systems installed more than a month. What returns are those people receiving on their solar panels? Where is the real data of the returns? Don't you guys have service agreements with those clients? Wouldn't the better sales pitch be to show the real numbers of what is being returned to the homeowners and not the phantom industry numbers of possibilities?

Even $200 a month is $2,400, but these are unproven, forward looking statements without basis of how firm that $200 a month is because it is future dollars based on your present dollars of $100 a month that is still unproven and is being used as a sale pitch, when, the real data exists but is not being collected or published, ghee, I wonder why. Especially since solar panels have been around for more than 30 years.

Where are the homeowners that are saying the electric company has been sending them $100 checks every month since they put in their solar panels? For that matter, other than solar companies, there aren't any blogs with anyone saying that since they installed their solar panels their electric bills have been reduced $100 a month.

Would I spend $60,000 a month to maybe get $200 a month in the future? No, I would not. I'm not everybody, and everybody is not me. But if you want to SELL the value of these systems, then get the real data, not the rosy red projections that come from companies that want to sell a product.

.
 
One of the things Marion was alluding to was "Market Acceptance", which is key and must be proved empirically. There may be acceptance in some neighborhoods but not others. If acceptance doesn't yet represent the "market" but a fringe sector of the market, then you'll get people not paying for it or even removing it to improve the appeal of the home.

When you get to 4 unit properties or higher, a property is pretty much just "Numbers" and treated as an investment. The buyers are investors. Homes are largely purchased on the satisfaction of personal preferences for functionality, appeal and prestige and this is why many residential appraisers are having difficulty with this concept - simply, its different than the commercial/investor buyer situation but not necessarily in its entirety.

A solar electric panel depreciates and creates power that has a variable value over time, as prices fluctuate for power.

I wanted to make a few cross correlations to see if there is a similar situation that is valued by residential buyers due to income stream (not talking about investors):

When buyers buy, lets say, a duplex, they are hybrid buyer typically, partly residence appeal bias, partly investment bias. Rental rates can change over time, but they are typically percieved to be fairly stable. One can easily see how renting the other side will offset some of the mortgage payment, its a check in the hand for a certain amount on a monthly basis - very tangible. Solar panel returns are not so easily anticipated by a buyer or fully understood by the market, especially in the long term. Banks can factor in 75% to 90% of the additional unit income in duplexes based upon market rents for qualification purposes, whereas, there is no qualification assistance from solar panel income. In addition, buyers of duplexes may see the additional unit as a mother-in-law or plan to move to another home eventually and rent out the entire duplex after they lived there as a primary residence for the minimum period, so it can function as an investment and yet get a full tax break when they sell. There is no correlation to solar panels in this situation, so a duplex rental can have added utility. Already, I'm seeing significant disparity here in relation to a rental income situation for a residential type individual.

Actually, what I'm thinking is, solar panels are technology that sheds value over time. What sort of thing correlates to this in the residential market? An energy efficient appliance (water heater, furnace, AC system, added insulation, triple pane windows, passive solar-southern exposure), etc. People do pay more for added efficiency but what they pay depends upon the buyer, the appeal of the item if it is visible (furnace doesn't need appeal, but an energy efficient washer does), location of the property and the property itself.

We can see what people are paying for a new unit over and above a standard or less efficient unit. If there is broad acceptance to pay X more for that added efficiency and percieved cost savings per.....year probably, then that should be the contribution for a new unit. I think, to apply a cash flow analysis there has to be proof of market acceptance; otherwise, the market is saying, we don't care about it as an investment, so cash flow is irrelevant for its choice. But they may be paying more for such items and it may be widely accepted, but not because there is tangibly percieved monetary return, but more for a different reason. Appeal, prestige, etc.

The other point I made prior is that even when the investment value is not apparent to the applicable market; it may have value in that market as a hedge against pricing uncertainty, which is more "emotional" rather than numerical and just the stuff that influences buyers in the residential market (sometimes to the point of being irrational). Corporations also hedge against price uncertainty with commodity options, for example, but this tends to be more rational and by the numbers (projects based upon trend lines, standard deviations, business trends, etc).

Other things that influence residential buyers are: Prestige, appeal, social concience, environmentalism, etc. With the exception of prestige, and appeal, I don't think social concience or environmentalism is high on an investors list of priorities.

Appraisers have to think like a typical buyer, we can't deviate from that or else we appraise in an unrealistic way. When buyers percieve a solar installation as an investment that is understood in a rather rational uniform way, then we can appraise using this perception. However, I don't think we are at that point generally in the residential market. The more a particular property appeals to the investor, the more a solar installation factors in as an investment (duplex, triplex, quadraplex, commercial properties). The more tangible and clearly understood is the payback on a solar installation to a non-investor in the residential market, the greater should be market acceptance and the more it should be valued as an investment for non-investors. Then, by all means, stick that result into the sales grid.

Some excellent information here, but allow me to build on one or two things please. Studies have shown that political sway plays little into the decision to go solar. In a 2006 study of homeowners who had solar, 53% of the people purchased it to save money and only 15% because of the environment. Many states do not have electricity prices even close to what we have here in CA. It might be helpful for some of Y'all to understand where CA stands in terms of rates (and where your state might soon be).

We work on a Tier system (all rates at Per kWh).
Tier 1 (Base line) .12
Tier 2 (100 -130% of Baseline) .15
Tier 3 (131 - 200% of Baseline) .24
Tier 4 (201 - 300% of Baseline) .27
Tier 5 (over 300% of Baseline) .31

And we can be charged even more for using electricity at peak times of the day.

Now think of these rates with an 8% increase annually for the next 5 years (or even the average of 6.5% every year forever). I know some other states only pay .04 or .08 but we get sucked dry. Even Texas is starting in the direction of solar but it is slow, not because it is mostly a Conservative state, but because it is rapidly becoming very expensive there as well.
 
I agree with Praser... commercial and residential buyers are completely different animals.

We do see a residential market reaction to solar/energy efficient upgrades here. Some net metered homes that are breaking even or better every year, but the market reaction is still no where near the cost of a PV grid tied system.

The OP seems to think that because the cost of a solar system can be rolled into the mortgage, WE are to blame for the lack of a market reaction?

:shrug:

I don't blame you, I simply don't understand how something that so very obviously saves significant amounts of money for a homeowner is not given any weight in an appraisal.

In California through 2009 there were just over 74000 new systems installed and I would imagine that number doubled last year. This is not just a few thousand environmentalists being self conscious, it is a serious change in the way we live here ... and it's not being considered.
 
Unless the system has a storage capability (batteries) there are periods of time when no power is being generated (night time) and periods where low power is being generated (cloudy days). During these time the house is back on the grid.

It's very difficult to come up with sufficiently accurate dollar amounts of savings to use for purposes of developing a quantitative adjustment by income capitalization. Kind of like doing an income approach on a vacation rental property or a rentable accessory unit.

It may be easier if the system can store energy but then we're talking $50k to $75k for a system instead of $20k.


It is not difficult to accurately develop a quantitative savings. Sunlight studies have been done for the last 30 year nationwide and it is easy to be very accurate in how much sunlight a specific area gets. Can it change ... with a volcano going off and dusting the earth in a giant cloud ... sure. But under normal circumstances ... no problem.

The only way a homeowner would want batteries is if they were off the grid. Batteries need to be replaced frequently and become a bigger drain than they are a positive.
 
Might work great for you guys in death valley
http://www.solarcraft.net/sun-hours-map.htm

Electric Company Rebate info
http://www.pplelectric.com/e-power/Residential/renewable+energy+program.htm

USC at Berkley
http://faculty.haas.berkeley.edu/borenste/SFChron080421.pdf

In order to get a positive return from the electric company, you need to generate more electricity than you use, at the time you are trying to use it. So when you come home from work and it’s dark, you are not generating electricity and with the tie in system the OP was talking about, you have not stored any electricity either. But you’re still cooking, washing dishes, taking showers and running all those other appliances, hence, buying electricity from the utility provider, resulting in A BILL. But you are generating electricity during the day, which you might not be using, depending on the number of appliances running like refrigerators, hot water heaters, electric heaters, etc. So, if the solar system is big enough to generate enough electricity to cover what is being used in a 24 hour period, then the system breaks even with a zero bill from the electric company. If the system is large enough to generate more than is used in 24 hours you may get some money back from the electric company. If you add batteries and the battery charger to the system, you might get there. But, the expense and maintenance including monitoring of the charging of the batteries, ($1,700 for the good ones, each) does not warrant the additional expense for most people.

PP&L reports that the average home uses about 1,000 kilowatts per month.

If the OP would please quote the cost to install a system that would generate and store enough electricty to be 100% independent of the electric company at 1,000 kilowatts per month, you'll see why they are not as well recieved in the market as the industry would like.

I don't do off grid systems and it would take a lot for me to install batteries in an on grid system (they just are not good and they are expensive for the homeowner ... don't get me wrong, I'd do it if money were no thought to the buyer and they understood the expense, but I don't recommend it.) But to answer your question in a slightly different way .....

Every home is different and every homeowner uses electricity differently (please add fine print as necessary here ... this is not a guaranteed price for your situation, your rate and total may vary. every situation is different please call for a personalized quote ... yada yada yada .....)there are a number of assumptions here including tax rates, no tile roof, one story and the way the house faces and angles of roof, but some of my basic numbers are....

Gross System price to offset 12000kWh/year in So Cal $40,392
Current State incentive $10,314
Current Federal Tax Credit $ 9,174
Total to the consumer $21,405

This will offset 100% of the bill (including night use) and could very easily return money from the electric company but I did not figure that in here.

Original average monthly bill $218/ month
30 Years at 5% Financing $116/ month
Added Tax benefit from mtg write off annually $47.52/ month
Bringing the total monthly savings to $163.52/month

Over the course of 25 years with an average annual electricity price increase of 6.5% (historically accurate for SoCal) this system could save the homeowner (or homeowners) $214,931.
 
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