Get right or get out!

[Anonymous]

Dave-Bob

First let me say that no, Bob Ipock was not the appraiser bob of which I spoke.

From the section of the appraisers act on those who do not need a license.
Chapter 93E 1-3(f) (3). Any person to qualify as an expert witness for court or administrative agency testimony, if otherwise qualified.

Also this sectoin is the section that exepmts ad valorem appraisers.

Sounds like a state investigator to me.

I will agree with you that is an opinion of value is expressed by an investigaotr, than an SR3 review should be performed. Perhaps there shuld be more than one section or division of the investigation process. The investigator who either finds a potential problem or not. If so, then a state reviewer develops the SR3 review. I think that anyone who is having a hearing on their work should be there. I can not theat they wouldnt be. Is it that they dont care or that they are not allowed?

Dave, I appologize. It was Steven who quoted SR3.


As far as JE goes, please point to the line that states that the NCAB could not invoke it as a state agency (a jurisdiction). It does not specifically say that they can not JE out of the entire document. It just has to be disclosed.

In the other case I described about the review process and the large subdivision. Why not have the "review" at the board meeting. THe investigator finds the facts and determines that under USPAP a misleading appraisal may have been developed. The appraiser is called to a hearing with the board. All of the facts are out in the open. They question, he defends. If he is wrong, he is sentenced. If he is right, and has convinced them, he leaves.

I will strongly agree that there have been several cases where appraisers I know of should have lost their licenses and got their wrists slapped. However, what I dont want to happen is that we tie the hands of the enforcement side so tight that they cant even wrist slap anymore.

 

[Bob Ipock]

"From the section of the appraisers act on those who do not need a license.
Chapter 93E 1-3(f) (3). Any person to qualify as an expert witness for court or administrative agency testimony, if otherwise qualified.

Also this sectoin is the section that exepmts ad valorem appraisers.

Sounds like a state investigator to me. "


Bill,

The investigators for the NCAB are in fact licensed appraisers and required to be so. THIS is what qualifies them to testify. If they were not appraisers, defendents would imediately object to their testimony on grounds of lack of expertise and qualifications.

Ad valorem appraisers appraise property for taxing authorities, generally the counties. These folks do have a SEPERATE license, which qualifies them to do ad valorem appraisals. Many of them also hold a NCAB license, but are not required to do so.

Sometime last year, with little fan fare, the NCAB STOPPED asking value questions of it's investigators and in fact, the investigators have been instructed NOT to discuss value. The investigators no longer discuss value at all, but rather the specific USPAP or NCAB Rule violations. They will not discuss value UNLESS a Standard 3 Review has been done, which has
not been done for any of the hearings that i have witnessed.

The process you suggest for hearings, is pretty much how it is done. The State and the defendent each have an oportunity to present their case and to cross-examine all witnesses who testify. I would venture to guess that less than 2% complaints ever wind up with a hearing. Most complaints are either dismissed or a consent order is signed by the defendent, instead of having a hearing. I have been to about 18 NCAB meetings and can tell you that hearings are rare thing. Many times there are no hearings at all at a given monthly meeting.

If you get a chance, attend a NCAB meeting where a hearing will take place. You can get an agenda for the next meeting by calling raleigh and asking for one. It usually comes a couple of days before the meeting is held. Sitting thru an actual hearing is better than an CE class you could imagine.


Bob

 

[Anonymous]

Bob,


I know that the NCAB investigators are certified. I was asked to suport my opinion that they would not have to be. Which I did.


My entire reason for getting into this was that there appear to be a few preachers and a large choir in this section of the forum. If you disagree and even if you can support your opinion, you are still "excommunicated".

If one in this forum does not take for gospel the preachings of the stated opinions on USPAP, one is wrong. I am simply pointing out that this is not the case. USPAP, like many laws, is written so vaugely that it can be read many different ways. The meaning you take is one thing, the meaning I take may be another. Like the points I made about JE. Until it is more clearly written (which by the way is required by the Constitution) it will be read to benefit whomever is doing the reading.

 

[Bob Ipock]

"I know that the NCAB investigators are certified. I was asked to suport my opinion that they would not have to be. Which I did."

Bill,

No problem,I hope more folks develop opinions and express them.

In regard to your opinion that investigators do not have to be certified in NC, you are simply incorrect. Not a question of opinion, but of fact and NCAB policy. No investigator has ever been hired by the NCAB because there POLCY is that all applicants must be State Certified Appraisers. So, based on that, they do have to be.

I have never calimed to be a USPAP expert, but I did attend a 2 1/2 day class with the Chairman of the AQB as instructor. I am now Certified by the Appraisal Foundation as a USPAP instructor. I am trying to learn more each day. The NCAB can not invoke Jurisdictioanl Exception unless authorized to do so by the NC Legislature or a State Court. It simply does not have the power to invoke JE on it's own. To the best of my knowledge, the NCAB has NEVER even tried to invke it althogh some individual board members suggested it. The NCAB director is an attorney and there is another staff attorney as well (who actually works for the Attorney General's Office). These learned folks are there to keep the NCAB from doing stupid things. Sometimes they prevail...sometimes not.

If you would post a QUESTION about JE and who and how it can be used, I will forward it to the Chairman of the AQB and see if he will answer. It would sure be better to ask a true expert, than those of us on here. Perhaps he would help to enlighten some of us average Joe appraisers.

 

[Bob Ipock]

The USPAP Frequently ASKED Questions book has two questions and answers on Jurisdictional Exception. The questions are on page 28 and 29, question #'s 46 and 47.

If anyone wants a copy (why I would not have a clue) of these I will be happy to fax them.


This is a neat book you can order from ($15.00 (plus $5.50 S & H) the AF.


Bob Ipock

 

[Anonymous]

Bob,

In regard to your opinion that investigators do not have to be certified in NC, you are simply incorrect. Not a question of opinion, but of fact and NCAB policy. No investigator has ever been hired by the NCAB because there POLCY is that all applicants must be State Certified Appraisers. So, based on that, they do have to be.

This is exactly the point I tried to make Bob. As you state I am wrong. READ IT BOB. I didnt say that it isnt their policy. I didnt say that they wont hire anyone who isnt certified. What I said was if you read the law, it would appear that the law says they dont have to be.

Bob, since you all are so much smater than the some of us, I guess I will now just go away. This is the reason that this section of the forum has lost so many people. You have your OPINION and the rest of us are wrong.

 

[Bob Ipock]

Bill,

This is just not important enough to get angry over. I don't claim to be smarter than anyone, but I certainly claim that I have attended 18 NCAB meetings in person, and I know what I have seen and heard. My opinions are likely to be different from yours. No problem. It does not matter one whit what my opinion is, everyone has one of there own.

 

[Anonymous]

Bob,

Just read that last post. I am going to make a smart remark. I saw earlier where you went to USPAP class with a good teacher. I see above how many meetings you have gone to.

Bob, I have a NASCAR license. Have been to more than 50 races. Ever seen me on TV in a Cup race? Attendance does not make one learned.

 

[Don Clark]

8)

Bill:

What Bob is trying to tell you is correct. JE is reserved for those entities that make law or interpret law, and no board or commission in any state has that authority. I have attended many more meetings of the ASB than I have of any state board or commission. I have taught USPAP since it was first published as a course. My first copy was sent by Fax to the school where I put together the curriculm for all aspiring licensed or certified appraisers in every category. I have been certified as a USPAP "Expert" by at least one jurisdiction so that I could do a consulting work to help a fellow appraiser in a question of ethical behaviour. He won. I hav also just sat through the same course that Bob went through. No, that does not make me an expert per se, nor does teaching USPAP for as long as it has been around. It does however, keep me current on such matters as JE. As to NC law, I sure am not an expert there. I am state certified residential in NC but do not pretend to be any authority on what regulations allow the NCAB to do. I do know that they have never hired an investigator that was not a certified appraiser. They also prefer to hire certified general. However, I do agree that not all investigations require as STD-3 Review. In my state of Virginia, our investigators are not appraisers. After a preliminary investigation, a board member who is an appraiser reviews the complaint and ask for either a further investigation, copies of the appraisers work file(all of it), and then reviews it, and passes on his/her suggestions to a fact finding hearing chairman who then holds a hearing. I doubt that a STD-3 review is done anywhere in any step I just mentioned. However, the finders of fact do not get into such things as adjustments, matters of opinion, or other matter requiring a judgement on the appraisers work, They investigate fraud, misrepresentation, factual data, errors made in regards to factual data. In that sense, it is far different than what the NCAB does. However, each jurisdiction has the right, and hopefully the authority, to investigate in whatever way the decide a matter should be investigated.

You do yourself little good to knock Bob for his attendance at board meetings, and taking classes. I,m sure sorry you wont ever be a NASCAR driver. However, Bob is and will be a better appraiser.

Don

 

[Anonymous]

Don,

Once again, my point has been made. Thank you. I would like your to point some things out from your comments though.

What Bob is trying to tell you is correct. JE is reserved for those entities that make law or interpret law, and no board or commission in any state has that authority. I have attended many more meetings of the ASB than I have of any state board or commission. I have taught USPAP since it was first published as a course

Don, I have read USPAP from front to back and can not find your assumption that a state board can not invoke JE. I have read all of the AO's and the Stmt. None of them say that Don. It does say, as you say, that an entitie that interprets law can apply JE. Would that not be a board Don? Maybe I have missed the line in USPAP that declares this Don. Maybe you can enlighten me by providing the line number.


As I stated above, again, I did not say that it was not NCAB's policy to not hire certified appraiser's as investigators. I said that readining USPAP, it ouwld not appear that it would be required. Don, what I am trying to make a point of here is that we all take classes. We all have had different instructors. I will assure you that no two teachers teach USPAP alike. No two states enforce it alike. No to Judges would rule on it alike. There are so many gray areas in USPAP that read literally, there can be many meanings to one sentance.

Don, read lines 328-335. Does that mean I can do it if I dont get paid?

You do yourself little good to knock Bob for his attendance at board meetings, and taking classes. I,m sure sorry you wont ever be a NASCAR driver. However, Bob is and will be a better appraiser

I am not knocking Bob for his attendance. I am knocking anyone who equates attendance with knowledge. Bob is a better appraiser than who Don? Are you implying something Don? Perhaps he is a better appraiser than he might have been had he not attended these meetings. I simply dislike someone (anyone) who says because they were present at a class or a meeting or at a school, that this automatically means they know more than the rest of us. Perhaps you should step back from all of your classes that you have taken and actually read the law. If you simply sit down and read it, then ask yourself how many ways could a good lawyer mangle the meaning of that, perhaps you will see my point.