• Welcome to AppraisersForum.com, the premier online  community for the discussion of real estate appraisal. Register a free account to be able to post and unlock additional forums and features.

Housing Bubble Bursting?

Status
Not open for further replies.
if you really think existing home sales increased last month,i suggest you download the pdf,and take a look at the confidence intervals and margin of error.as far as a bust,take a look at the number of mortgage resets coming up over the next year or so,new lending guidelines,inventory growth,nahb confidence poll,% of builders offering incentives,and the # of "price reduced " there is a home on the market in sebastopol offered for sale at "266k less than recent appraisal" and they will throw in a 50" plasma tv.there is always a reversion to the mean,and frequently an over correction.when the median price is 12x median income in a place like rohnert park,ca it is not sustainable.every smart real estate broker i know is boning up on short sales or specializing in reos...for crying out loud it is about trends...go to foreclosures.com or realtytrac,or even DQ news.if you disagree,i'd be happy to put you in a preconstruction condo,drop me a line.
 
Shiller's Home Price Index Explained

The following chart is by Robert J. Shiller and exhibits normalize inflation adjusted home prices over a period of time.

27leon_graph2.large.gif



Some people on this forum either did not understand this chart and what it represents or challenged the scholarship of such a chart. Bogus, phony and other words were used to describe this chart and that Shiller's work as not credible. I have found the source material and Shiller's words he uses to describe how this chart came about and what extent he went to. It is as follows:

I produced the home price series shown in Figure 2.1 by first linking together various annual home price indexes (by multiplying each by a constant so that values in one overlapping year are equalized across indexes) to arrive at a nominal home price index. Next, the nominal home price index was deflated by the Consumer Price Index.
Even though there were no regularly published home price indexes before the 1960s, some economists were constructing indexes of home prices that cover most of the years since 1890. We found home price indexes from 1890 to 1934 and from 1953 to the present that used in their construction some device to attempt to hold the quality of the home constant.
The nominal home price index 1890-1934 is from Leo Grebler, David M. Blank, and Louis Winnick, Capital Formation in Residential Real Estate: Trends and Prospects (Princeton, N.J.: National Bureau of Economic Research and Princeton University Press, 1956). It is a repeated-measures index based on a survey of homeowners in twenty-two U.S. cities, who were asked to give the value of their home in 1934 and the date and price of the purchase of that home. Since it is based on repeated measures of individual homes, the series is protected, in contrast to the simple median price, from any bias from changes in the mix of houses sold or of the increasing size and quality of newer homes. Its shortcoming is that it depends on memories of the surveyed homeowners for the earlier purchase price.
The nominal home price index that we constructed for 1934-53 is a simple average over five cities of median home prices advertised in newspapers. The cities are Chicago, Los Angeles, New Orleans, New York, and Washington, D.C. My students collected the data from microfilmed newspapers at the Yale University library, collecting approximately thirty prices for each city and year, except that for the fifth city, Washington, D.C., 1934-48, data came from a median price series from E. M. Fisher, Urban Real Estate Markets: Characteristics and Financing (New York:National Bureau of Economic Research, 1951). The median series for 1934-53 does not make any attempt to correct for home quality change, as do the indexes we use for the other sub periods. Improvement in home size and quality gives median home price an upward bias, and this is why I avoided using median price outside the 1934-53 interval.
The nominal home price index for 1953-75 is the home purchase component of the US Consumer Price Index (CPI). The Bureau of Labor Statistics collected data on home prices for those years for homes that are held constant in age and square footage. In the 1980s they discontinued this index when they switched to a rental equivalence basis for housing in the CPI. They made this change to correct what was considered a conceptual flaw in the housing component of the CPI: the CPI is supposed to be a price of consumption goods and services, not of investment assets. For our purposes, however, the old home purchase component is acceptable. There are, however, some short comings in the home purchase component, notably that it is based only on homes with certain government-subsidized mortgages, and the procedure that the Bureau of Labor Statistics used to correct for changes in the ceiling on these mortgages was not optimal. See J. S. Greenlees, “An Empirical Evaluation of the CPI Home Purchase Index 1973—8,” American Real Estate and Urban Economics Association Journal, 1982. A more detailed discussion of the indexes that were used here for years before 1975 can be found in my paper “Consumption, Asset Markets and Macroeconomic Fluctuations,” Carnegie-Rochester Conference Series on Public Policy, 17 (1982): 203-38.
The nominal home price index for 1975—87 is the U.S. home price index published by the U.S. Office of Housing Enterprise Oversight (OFHEO), which is available on their Web site. It is a repeat sales index, and thus controls for quality change. The nominal home price index for 1987—2004 is the repeat-sales U.S. home price index produced by Fiserv CSW, Inc., successor to Case Shiller Weiss, Inc.
Since 1987, the CSW and the OFHEO series have shown very similar patterns through time, though the sharpness of the increase is slightly more pronounced in the CSW series, an observation we attribute to the fact that our series is based only on actual sales, while the OFHEO series also uses both actual sales and appraised values as if they were sales. Appraised values are somewhat sluggish to respond to new market conditions.
The consumer price index used to deflate nominal series to real is the same as that used in Figure 1.1 and elsewhere in this book.
 
So then, you are saying for consistency, I should go ahead and hire Brad for the 116 retrospective assignments on a 120 year old home in Chicago to get to the bottom on this?:shrug:
 
Yep, very perceptive of you Steven. No one could have achieved such a spectacular observation and conclusion without your leading the way. Your work was a brilliant piece displaying your finest quality of analysis and conclusions. I wish I could have been so clear, cogent and succinct
Clear thinking precedes clear, cogent and succint writing. :)

Now that I got you past that hurdle, the next trick is explaining the bursting bubble that has been written about on this forum since 2002 (even before the line on the goof graph took off) isn't coming.
 
rogerwatland said:
So then, you are saying for consistency, I should go ahead and hire Brad for the 116 retrospective assignments on a 120 year old home in Chicago to get to the bottom on this?:shrug:
I think you need to do whatever is necessary to confirm your suspicions and doubts that Shiller's work is an acceptable representation or not of house prices over that time frame.

For starters, you can take the most recent time period where there is ample data from government sources and non-governmental organizations and construct your own index. Shiller points out that there are or were regularly published home price indexes after 1960. You can look at the sources Shiller used and compare them to what you have come up with. If that is a fair representation on Shiller's part, that should instill some confidence that he knows what he is doing. Maybe you won't agree, but at least you will have a basis for disagreement based upon your own work and you can stop right there.

There should not be any doubt that house prices have gone up in recent times. The question is, how does that compare to the past? And, what does that mean for the future? You can pull together additional research and make your own projections.
 
Steven Santora said:
Clear thinking precedes clear, cogent and succint writing.
Don't you wish you had that?:)

Up ... down ... up ... down ... up ... down ... up ... down ... up ... down, keep repeating that Steven, ... up ... down ... up ... down ... up ... down ... up ... down.

Now that I got you past that hurdle, the next trick is explaining the bursting bubble that has been written about on this forum since 2002 (even before the line on the goof graph took off) isn't coming.
Steven, there is no bubble, everyone knows that. What seems to be at issue is how far down are home prices going? And for how long? These are not hurdles unless you make them so. I wasn't here in 2002 and I don't care how long you and Mike Neff have been at it.

You know, your opinions would carry more weight if you had something to offer in the way of support. I don't relate to "goof graph" as clear thinking but a lack of achievement on how one expresses themselves. You might as well be using expletives.
 
Don't you wish you had that
Don't have to wish.

Steven, there is no bubble, everyone knows that.
Really? Did you notice the thread title?
Housing Bubble Bursting?

You know, your opinions would carry more weight
Which "opinion" is lacking: the one that says there is no bubble, the one that says interest rates move up and down together or the one that says the goof graph is deceptive?
 
Which "opinion" is lacking:
All of your opinions are lacking support.

goof - Slang. n. 1. An incompetent, foolish, or stupid person. 2. A careless mistake; a slip. --goof v. goofed, goof·ing, goofs. --intr. 1. To make a silly mistake; blunder. 2. To waste or kill time. --tr. To spoil, as through clumsiness; bungle: goof up a job. [Possibly alteration of dialectal goff, fool, from obsolete French goffe, stupid.]
the one that says the goof graph is deceptive?
Clear thinking on your part Steven? Now you throw in deceptive? Which do you really mean to apply to Shiller's graph?

If the FED reverses their 10 unecessary interest rate hikes, residential mortgage rates will go down.
Even at that, the mortgage rate trend line that is on your graph declines while the FED was lowering its rates and rises while the FED was increasing it's rates. That's what I was referring to.
Are you unaware that most long term rates like prime, T-rates and mortgage rates tend to move together up and down?
to·geth·er - adv. 1. In or into a single group, mass, or place: We gather together. 2. In or into contact: The cars crashed together. She mixed the chemicals together. 3.a. In association with or in relationship to one another; mutually or reciprocally: getting along together. b. By joint or cooperative effort: We ironed the entire load of clothes together. 4. Regarded collectively; in total: She is worth more than all of us together. Considered together, the proposals made little sense. 5. In or into a unified structure or arrangement: put the food processor together. 6. Simultaneously: The bells rang out together. 7. In harmony or accord: We stand together on this issue. 8. Informal. Into an effective, coherent condition: Get yourself together. --to·geth·er adj. Slang. 1. Emotionally stable and effective in performance: She's really together. 2. In tune with what is going on; hip. --idiom. get it all together or put it all together. Slang. To unify and harmonize one's resources so as to perform with maximal effectiveness. [Middle English, from Old English t½gædere. See ghedh- below.] --to·geth“er·ness n.
————————————————————
USAGE NOTE: Together with, like in addition to, is often employed following the subject of a sentence or clause to introduce an addition. The addition, however, does not alter the number of the verb, which is governed by the subject: The king (singular), together with two aides, is expected in an hour. The same is true of along with, besides, and in addition to. See Usage Note at besides, like2.
————————————————————
ghedh-. Important derivatives are: good, together, gather.
ghedh-. To unite, join, fit. 1. Lengthened o-grade form *gh½dh-. GOOD, from Old English g½d, good, from Germanic *g½daz, “fitting, suitable.” 2. TOGETHER, from Old English t½gædere, together (t½, to; see de-), from Germanic *gadurº, “in a body.” 3. GATHER, from Old English gad(e)rian, to gather, from Germanic *gadur½n, “to come or bring together.” [Pokorny ghedh- 423.]
I still don't agree with your statement concerning Prime being a long term interest rate nor do I agree that it moves together with the 30 year fixed rate instruments. I do agree that all interest rates move up and down, not necessarily all together or in sync. For example, 30 year U.S. Treasury bonds were moving down in yield for almost a full year (Q4 1999) before the Prime rate started moving down. Maybe you need to redefine what you mean by "together"?
 
All of your opinions are lacking support.
Maybe if you knew the difference between opinions and facts.

nor do I agree that it moves together with the 30 year fixed rate instruments.
On the posted chart, all three rates make their highs in 1981, move together in a general downtrend for over 20 years and make their lows in 2004-05. Those are the facts I was referring to. Who cares if you “agree?”


Instead of confusing yourself trying to figure out what "together" means, I was waiting for you to defend this little gem.
Steven, there is no bubble, everyone knows that.
From the Washington Post:
"We're in a bubble, and prices could fall substantially," said Robert J. Shiller, a professor of economics at Yale University and author of the 2000 book, "Irrational Exuberance,"
 
Last edited:
moh malekpour said:
Bobby,
They could have bought oil stocks in May 2004 at $34 and sell it a month ago at $78 just by clickin on the mouse and make much more money without dealing with real estate agents, appraisrs, lenders and purchase contracts.

Moh,

If you equate the cash on cash return of your quote (129%) with the runup that Randolph's chart shows, and apparently is the Bubble Bible, I agree with Brad E. give it a rest.

Is it the math, the fear or the lack of real estate knowledge that holds you back? You sat in the hottest market, per your previous posts and the chart, where an 80% leveraged position would have returned 900% cash on cash in a couple of years.

Your view point from the rear view mirror never changes does it? I don't know if you were here before the bubble talk. If you were, I'm sure you were not predicting the runup.

I don't dispute the charts, because frankly I have no time or desire to study them.

Simple test of credibility for bubblers. Did you have the same convictions when the runup started and did you act on those convictions. If not it's like a priest doling out sex therapy.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Find a Real Estate Appraiser - Enter Zip Code

Copyright © 2000-, AppraisersForum.com, All Rights Reserved
AppraisersForum.com is proudly hosted by the folks at
AppraiserSites.com
Back
Top