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Housing Bubble Bursting?

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Randolph,

"Do you want appraisers to quote KLA Times and DataQuick as the source for checking the stable box on the 1004? Maybe even checking the increasing box? What about short sales and foreclosure activity? Any mention of those?

Are you seeing any appraisals coming out of San Diego county with the declining box checked and a neighborhood analysis included to support that? Or do the majority of appraisal you see mirror what DataQuick is saying, values are increasing? Just curious."

Gee, Randolph, I do not know. Would you call an entire county a neighborhood? I am sure that is accurate for a few really remote areas but would not think that applies to San Diego county. So- of course not.

Reports I am seeing are generally talkling about stabilization of values in the county- some indicating declines even for SFRs, but these comments are generally neighborhood specific. About the only generalization I see is on the SD condo market where almost everyone is saying declining.

And no- I do not consider newspapers as sources- I do consider Dataquick info as a source but remember this is about a neighborhood and not a whole county. So- to the point- as I said you appear to know your markets and have told us for a while now about the declines, but that would also mean that if your markets are in decline then some others in the county must be going up if the county-wide data is actually up- no?

Brad
I am surprised that you put so much faith in what DataQuick is showing for San Diego county as far as trends go. I really don't believe DataQuick defines the market for the county in such a way as to be meaningful. For example, what does your AVM's tell you about price trends within zip codes and cities within San Diego county?

As a balance to DataQuick, I looked at Zillow. For an exercise, put in the address of 511 Starling Drive, Vista, CA 92083 into your AVM and tell me if you get something resembling the below graphic.

73494bb2e8.jpg


I have done this for several houses in different zip codes. Zillow is showing a declining price trend for the zip code, for the city and the county. It would be laughable if DataQuick cannot depict reality as well as Zillow, do you think? :ph34r:
 
And despite what Randoplh has said- I am sure he has a handle on the markets he works alright- or what Moh says, the facts actually remain.

Year over year- 12/05-12/06 none of the Socal Counties are actually down in resale values. This wqeekend the KLA Times had the Dataquck info for San Diego County and it was up .9% year over year.

OF COURSE, the trend is down. Still the hard numbers cannot be ignored- never can.

Brad
Brad,

I went to DataQuick. You have misspoken on San Diego county. From DataQuick web site median sales price:
San Diego county Dec 05 $516K Dec 06 $483K -6.4%
That seems to agree with Zillow! Oh, I agree with it too. Maybe you don't but I don't know where you get your data from. :rof:

Of course, if you read just the first several paragraphs of this article from DataQuick (see link below), it reads like David [SIZE=-1]Lereah from NAR making his usual spin on how well real estate values are holding up. Go down to the bottom and see the table and it tells you median values actually declined year over year for San Diego county.
[/SIZE]
http://www.dqnews.com/RRSCA0107.shtm

Actually, the Zillow graphic is much more revealing of price trends than what either NAR or DataQuick are saying. If you look at the peak value that occurs in June, it is very clear that prices are in decline, county-wide.
 
Do you think the fed is telling you what you want to hear..here is a quote from
1978..just before a recession.Sound familiar?Can you say "Soft Landing" boys and girls.

Volcker, who was head of the New York Fed in 1978 and was eventually credited with breaking the back of inflation with steep rate hikes in 1979 and the early 1980s as Fed Chairman, was also deeply worried about inflation in 1978.

"I think a much greater risk for the economy is a perpetuation of what we saw before November 1 -- the falling away of confidence reflected in the feeling that there was no grip on inflation or on the exchange rate. I think that is the kind of event that could not only maximize the chance of a recession but maximize the severity of a recession if and when it appears," Volcker said at the December 1978 FOMC meeting.

"And we have the very evident fact, which many people have commented on, that inflation is getting worse and not better. When one looks at those risks, I don't think we have any choice. I don't think we can afford to sit here passively at this time," Volcker said.

Yet Miller seemed confident through much of the year that the Fed could achieve a "soft landing" of moderating growth and price pressures and didn't share some of the impatience expressed by other officials. The Fed raised rates throughout 1978, but only in gradual steps that took the federal funds rate from 6.75 percent in January 1978 to around 10 percent by year's end.

"We have pulled off a minor miracle and I think we should take a little more confidence ourselves in pulling off that minor miracle of contributing to a slowdown in the economy on a balanced condition," Miller said at the October 1978 FOMC meeting.

"And I would merely say to you that to find that soft landing, I don't know how much more we have to do. But I know that since we have seven years to do it, we'd do better to gently come at the problem rather than whack it too hard on the head and be sorry," he added at that meeting.
 
Randolph,

OK- I did just check Datquick's site and it does say what you noted. I have no idea where the L.A. Times got its data and no longer have last Sunday's L.A. Times- just reported what they reported.

Noted.

Brad
 
Randolph,

OK- I did just check Datquick's site and it does say what you noted. I have no idea where the L.A. Times got its data and no longer have last Sunday's L.A. Times- just reported what they reported.

Noted.

Brad
Brad,

It happens, I understand. However, I am a little bit curious. You say:
Reports I am seeing are generally talkling about stabilization of values in the county- some indicating declines even for SFRs, but these comments are generally neighborhood specific. About the only generalization I see is on the SD condo market where almost everyone is saying declining.
Looking at Zillow by zip code or by city, I see them declining in the last 6 - 8 months. How is it that you are seeing appraisals that indicate stabilization of values in a neighborhood of San Diego county?

I would not presume to tell you how you should do your job, but if I know property values in San Diego county are declining and has been for 6 to 8 months or so at 1%+ a month, I would be extra suspicious of the value on any appraisal that indicates stable or increasing values. 2006 was not a good year for lenders on defaults or homeowners with 100% financing here. 2007 is going to be significantly worse here.
 
It is a scary run to cover their mistakes and relentless risk taking appetite. Major banks and Wall Street firms are unloading bad home loans, as more households fall behind on mortgage payments.

The deflation has started. The first signs are borrowing to pay for mortgages. That is last stage and happened the same way in 1930s. The deflation when sustained for more than six months tanks the economy. The recession changes into deep recession with high unemployment and majority underemployed. Finally depression in the economy takes place when the wealthy start hiding their money under their pillow and rush out of the country for safe heavens.

Run on the bank is scary. When these banks will fail in the middle of deep recession, they will ask for help from the Fed. The biggest question is – will the Federal Government be able to bail out these banks of hundreds of billions of dollars?
 
Randolph,

Because it still comes down to the neigborhood. While many, perhaps most, are declining, not all are.
Even within a zip there can be and often are many neighborhoods.

You will remember, I hope, that very early on in this string I identified SD county as one of the areas that concerned me in terms of declines, and I said this was especially true of condos (due to the high percentage of speculators).

So, how do I check? I run comps in the specific area. If 20 or so come up I can look at the priors on them. If there are some that recently increased and otehrs that have recently decreased I cannot fault an appraiser for noting a "stable" market.

But I think I also noted that I am seeing reports indicaing a declinng market.

Of course, this is not troubling me at all. I see the county doing pretty much what I had expected. 6.4% decline is fairly tame given the red hot run up we had.

Will it continue?- probably for a time.

The data that actually surprised me was for Ventura county, but I did not study the composition of that data.

And, for short sales I have brokers telling me all sorts of stories about massive declines- especially in condos. Sometmes true but just as often not true. I go into the sales within the complex and within nearby complexes and the data will sometimes support the broker's contention and sometmes not. Of course we factor in their motivations for saying so as well.

Just had one where they told me the market was off 30%. Current listings were only a few and they were all higher than the recent sales plus we had a ton of data, much very recent, showing it to be really stable. Naturally we declined their offer and they revised it all the way up to the current market level, less a minor incentive.

So, neighborhood by neihborhood, sometimes even more granular than that. Luckily, we really have a ton of data for most of the CA markets.

Brad
 
Brad:
First of all I understand the position like you and George Hatch are in and I know you can't come out and say the bottom is falling out without shooting yourselves in the head so I don't fault you for your optimistic attitude.
Having said that, I can paraphrase your above post regarding the great depression of the 1930's this way: 'Only 20% of the people were out of work so what is the problem.' The problem is that the consequences of how that problem affected our nation still haunt us today and could very end up bankrupting the federal government. :fiddle:
 
There are only two groups are saying that the bottom has been hit: NAR and Federal Reserve. Everybody else is saying that this market has a long way to go down to get to the bottom.

This is Hard Luck for Housing in San Diego:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/business/20070215-9999-1b15housing.html

Countywide price median at its lowest point since July 2004
By Roger Showley
UNION-TRIBUNE STAFF WRITER
February 15, 2007

San Diego County housing prices slid a bit further last month, returning to mid-2004 levels, as buyers pressed for more concessions from builders and discounts from sellers.

The overall median price stood at $472,000, down 5.6 percent from a year ago and $23,000, or 4.6 percent, less than in December, DataQuick Information Systems reported yesterday. The last time the median was that low was in July 2004, when it was $470,000. The market reached its all-time peak of $517,500 in November 2005.

Single-family resale homes, the biggest part of the market, shed $20,000 from the January 2006 level of $560,000, but the latest median of $540,000 was unchanged from December.

Similarly, the resale condominium median was unchanged at $380,000 from December to January. It was 3.6 percent below the year-ago level of $394,000.

It was in the new-housing sector that the biggest price fluctuations occurred. The median for newly built houses, condos and condo conversions was $395,000, down 8.8 percent from the $433,000 median one year ago and a dip of 14 percent from the December median of $460,000.

Housing prices
Tim Sullivan, a San Diego-based real estate analyst, said what's at work in the new-housing category is a buildup of completed, unsold inventory – finished homes sitting empty in subdivisions and condo projects.

“Inventory (of unsold homes) is the bugaboo everyone is focused on,” Sullivan said.

Sharon Hanley, who publishes a weekly bulletin on local new-home sales, reported that the inventory of unsold homes stood at 5,095 at the end of January – a 36-week supply – with 871 detached and 4,224 attached homes available. At the same time five years ago, the inventory was 2,378 homes.

To reduce the backlog last year, many builders began offering incentives, such as upgrades, discounts and special financing.

Tom Archbold, vice president for sales and marketing at San Diego-based Hallmark Communities, said the company's just-opened, 22-unit Vineyard project in San Marcos offers $30,000 in incentives on single-family homes built on small lots. Prices range from $459,000 to $554,000. Three of the first seven homes released were sold over the weekend.

Archbold said the incentives, usually taken in the form of interest-rate buy-downs, may not last much longer.

“It's not going to get any better than this,” he said.

Hallmark President Mike Hall said last year's sluggish new-home market prompted him to delay his next project, Dixie Village in Oceanside, by several months. Grading is now scheduled to start in April, with sales beginning in June.

“There was a lot of inventory on the market, and that caused prices to soften,” Hall said. “We have enough lots to build on right now, so we're holding them back.”

Tony Pauker, who heads Olson Co.'s San Diego division, said his sales staff detects a slight change in mood among visitors to the company's projects.

“Traffic isn't up terribly in terms of gross traffic, but of those, the true buyers are actively looking in the market,” Pauker said.

To adjust to the slower pace of sales, Olson plans no new openings this year, Pauker said.

DataQuick reported that San Diego's home sales in January totaled 2,772, 4.3 percent below year-ago levels.

The January sales pace marked the 31st straight month of year-over-year declines, but it was the smallest drop since August 2005 and sharply contrasted with the 18.1 percent year-over-year decline registered in December.

The figures were derived from a revised methodology adopted by DataQuick that includes about 10 percent more transactions than previously considered. The way regional median prices are calculated also was altered slightly.

On a month-over-month basis, January had 27.5 percent fewer sales than December, but it was the smallest January pullback from December sales levels in five years. January almost always sees fewer sales than December because so many builders and consumers want to close escrow for tax reasons before the end of the year.

By other measurements, the housing market is not necessarily recovering rapidly from the 2006 downturn. The number of active listings this week on the Sandicor multiple listing service stood at about 16,700, higher than 16,300 last month and 14,200 a year ago, but lower than the cycle's peak of nearly 23,000 in August. The average time it took to sell a resale house last month was 81 days, compared with 69 days a year ago.

Even if slower than a year ago, San Diego's sales pace was much healthier than in other Southern California counties, DataQuick reported. There were 18,128 sales in Southern California last month, down 17.2 percent from January 2006. Riverside County was off 34.2 percent, followed by San Bernardino County, down 28.5 percent, and Orange County, down 16.3 percent. Los Angeles was off 6.9 percent.

As for the resale market, David Cabot, president of the San Diego Association of Realtors and a top executive with Prudential California Realty, said agents in his company and around the county were more optimistic about the coming year.

“I believe the bottom has been hit and should level out and should be going up a little bit,” Cabot said. “I don't know if that is accurate; we'll have to wait until June to see.”

It wasn't just real estate agents who were seeing an end to the downturn. Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke spoke before Congress yesterday about the “drag from housing” diminishing, while his predecessor, Alan Greenspan, told a Canadian audience that the “worst is behind us.”
 
we'll have to wait until June to see.”
It is approaching presidential election season. Bush in 2000 harped on how the economy was faltering. A self-fulfilling prophecy in effect. Likewise, the Democrats will raise the alarm signal that excessive borrowing and the housing market means Bush policy is a failure. People listen. And react by being cautious which brings about that self-fulfilling prophecy again....so I don't look for 07-08 to be banner years but rather to be rather slow..soft landing? perhaps. But I don't think the full impact of the housing sector is in the market place yet. We've seen hundreds of jobs disappear in this area. With so many illegals as carpenters, dirt contractors, bricklayers, etc., it is not immediately visible in the employment numbers either.
 
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