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Housing Bubble Bursting?

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Nourriel Roubini managed to get the reporter depressed. A hard landing is still possible, but I tend to think we will see a 'soft depression' that may extend for several years, perhaps 5, 6...which suggests the next president will be a one term wonder.
 
Terrell,

That is the first time I have seen anyone use the term "depression" with regards to this and have never heard the term "soft depression".

I do not think Ben Bernanke will like you. He did his doctoral thesis on the Great Depression and most on Wall St. believe that this may be the one thing that he will never allow to happen if it can be avoided- a depression.

But, I'm still trying to figure out what a soft depression is. Care to elaborate?

Brad
 
Nourriel Roubini managed to get the reporter depressed. A hard landing is still possible, but I tend to think we will see a 'soft depression' that may extend for several years, perhaps 5, 6...which suggests the next president will be a one term wonder.

The last down cycle lasted longer than that. I came in the appraisal business when prices were going down (and they were going down before I entered), and it was about 7-8 years before prices started noticeably heading up.
 
So much government control that the next "Depression "will take a decade to unfold.The frog will be cooked slowly with inflation and unemployment rising at the same time.Unsecured or poorly secured debt will drown the average consumer and many institutions with the dollar falling to wall paper status.1929 will look like a Picnic compared to Stagflation.So party on and please buy a McMansion and a new SUV today and keep the dream alive , or is it a nightmare......
 
Brad:
It has to do with time. A recession is a lowering of economic growth spread throughout the economy that last a few months or short period. A depression is a prolonged recession and the last depression lasted over 10 years.
A soft depression is a good term for what we are facing, it will last a couple of years or up to 5 years.
Deflation is the key factor to consider. With deflation nominal interest rates can drop to zero but the effective interest rate can be like 10%. That is what happened in Japan. This in my view is the box the feds are trapped in. Deflation is what people with no money some should be worried about. If you have a nice nest egg then happy days are here again. The only thing we have to fear is politicians. You know, the people that created the problem who want to solve the problem they caused. :fiddle:
 
Austin, you probably know this but I will inject it into this discussion.

Deflation has its start with people who can't pay or service their debts. Debt relief to the debtor comes when the debt is rescheduled at lower terms than the original or in the worst of cases, totally repudiated. Debt relief last came when the FED lowered interest rates down to 1% so that consumers and corporations could refinance their debt at lower interest rates and better terms.

Investors (board class to mean banks, lenders, secondary market, etc.) loose some of their money when debtors can't or won't pay. Money for lending (or willingness to lend) actually contracts on this basis. Collateral used to secure the debt, if any, is seized and put on the market to liquidate in hopes to reclaim a portion of what is owed.

Forced liquidation of assets and the lack of credit is what causes the visible signs of deflation. We see it as distressed sales or discounted prices or "bargains". The prices begin to fall on those assets that are liquidated to pay debt.

This is all elementary economics and only considers one dimension of the economy. But we are seeing forced liquidations in real estate known as short sales and foreclosure sales at prices that are less than the debt on those properties. We are seeing credit conditions changing in response to that and the secondary market rejections of debt offered under the terms and conditions that produced those defaults.

The idea is being promulgated that nothing of consequence will happen because this problem is compartmentalized to be solely contained in the subprime debt market, a small part of the total debt market, and the risk has been distributed so widely that no one investor will be substantially hurt by the defaults.

However, the reaction of the secondary markets has been "extreme" to subprime and now alt-a debt paper. Lenders are finding it unprofitable trying to sell this kind of paper unless they discount the price substantially. This is in response to a rising default rate.

The symptoms are showing that many of the subprime lenders have gone out of business or taken over by their creditors. The worst is yet to come.

With home prices flat or falling across the nation, equity extraction from homes have fallen along with the rising defaults on mortgages. This is having a chilling affect on consumer spending, which accounts for 70% of GDP. 30 million subprime people cannot spend at the rate they were spending last year. There is little gas left in the tank for subprime borrowers.
 
U.S. Homebuilders Face Bankruptcy Risk in '08

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aXqHEXUKrjqY&refer=us

April 14 (Bloomberg) -- The collapse of the subprime mortgage market may push some big U.S. homebuilders toward Chapter 11 beginning next year, according to bankruptcy advisers and lawyers who specialize in the real estate industry.


The weakest publicly held builders are staying out of bankruptcy by relying on the profits they made when sales boomed and on the public debt they sold in those years, said Ronald Greenspan, a lawyer and financial adviser to the creditors of four bankrupt subprime mortgage lenders. Homebuilders issued $3.6 billion in public debt in 2005 and 2006, though only $600 million of that comes due this year, Greenspan said.


``There is no sword over the industry's head yet,'' said Greenspan today at a conference of the American Bankruptcy Institute in Washington. ``That doesn't mean the industry is not wounded. Instead, the breaking point could come in 2008 or 2009.''


The real estate market has been powered the past few years by subprime homebuyers who typically have shaky credit histories. Now that those loans are no longer being made, demand for new homes will plunge, pushed down even further by the more than 1 million homes currently in foreclosure, Greenspan said. At least 30 home lenders halted operations or sought buyers in the past 12 months, including five that went bankrupt since last November, according to Bloomberg data.

None of the major, publicly traded homebuilders have declared bankruptcy, though there are signs many are in financial trouble, Greenspan said, declining to name specific companies. The value of shareholder's equity for some companies equals or exceeds the value of the undeveloped land the companies have under contract, he said. As the housing downturn continues, that land will fall in value.


The perceived risk of owning the bonds of some of the biggest U.S. homebuilders has increased since a wave of bankruptcies hit the mortgage industry that caters to homebuyers with poor credit histories.


Credit default swaps have more than doubled in price since Feb. 1 for the second-biggest builder by revenue, D.R. Horton, Inc.; the fourth biggest, Pulte Homes Inc.; and the biggest luxury home builder, Toll Brothers Inc.

The cost of swaps on $10 million worth of Toll Brothers debt, for example, jumped to $136,750 Friday from $58,500 on Feb. 1, according to according to CMA Datavision.

Kara Homes Inc., the New Jersey builder known for so-called McMansions, became one of the first major, closely held home builders to file for Chapter 11 protection in October. Such regional builders are likely to precede any of the big public companies into bankruptcy, Kara's bankruptcy lawyer, David L. Bruck, said today in an interview at the conference.


``You are going to see the smaller companies get bit earlier,'' Bruck said. By next year, or the year after, some of the larger companies will be forced to restructure as the housing crunch continues, he said.


``It's only a matter of time,'' Bruck said.
More signs of deflation going forward. The prognosis for homebuilders is not good, not good at all.
 
There is an old economics joke that says "a recession is when your neighbor loses his job, a depression is when you lose yours"
 
Moh and Randolph, You guys are obviusly posting without any regards to my over/under prediction on this thread. I hope the equity in your homes disappears!.
 
Pick a number - any number - place your bets!

Moh and Randolph, You guys are obviusly posting without any regards to my over/under prediction on this thread. I hope the equity in your homes disappears!.
Okay Mark, you got the attention that you obviously want. It won't matter if it is over or under, to me.

I like watching a slow motion event. Remember [SIZE=-1]Evil Knievel? The problem with his stunts of daring was that they were over in a matter of seconds or minutes and you knew right away the success or failure of the event.

The housing market has its cheerleaders who are closely associated with that market. Their opinions and forecast are repeatedly shown up in disrepute by unfolding events. The most egregious and unreliable proven by its failures is NAR. The word "bubble" has been used to describe the housing market in its expansion from 2002 through 2005. People really get excited over that term and the term "bust" when used together.

It does appear to me that the housing and related problems have additional years to go before stabilization and resumed growth. Hence this thread could conceivably last that much longer. Pick a number - 10,000,000 too high for you? :new_all_coholic:


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