I still hate ANSI

[Fernando]

If Story 1 was a full garage originally built in the tract neighborhood and 50 years later, some homes had part of garage converted into living area and some better quality constructed and some not, do you include the finished area in the garage as part of GLA? In the past, No. ANSI would say so. Some comps still not showing the conversion addition.
If property is only 2 story and that level is 1000 sf, an additional 500 sf garage conversion makes big difference in value.

 

[Dublin ohio]

Another tale in the annals of Fernando. He is going to do it his way anyhow

 

[Retired-70]

If Story 1 was a full garage originally built in the tract neighborhood and 50 years later, some homes had part of garage converted into living area and some better quality constructed and some not, do you include the finished area in the garage as part of GLA? In the past, No. ANSI would say so. Some comps still not showing the conversion addition.
If property is only 2 story and that level is 1000 sf, an additional 500 sf garage conversion makes big difference in value.

The Fairview Area in Pacifica has a lot of houses that fit the bill.

As usual, your post has logic/grammar problems; in this case: "if property is only 2 story and that level is 1000sf ....". "that level" apparently refers to Story 1. Now thank god your terminology has improved: Level -> Story.

First, you can't talk about these issues without first getting past local code. The Pacifica Planning Department has very specific garage regulations. And in fact, with all the zones and exceptions, they are fairly complex. But. you have to deal with them.

Generally, SFR houses built or updated since 1988 have to have a two-car garage. My 1953 home had a big addition in 1993, and I had to extend the garage with another bay. Unless, for some reason, you are exempt, you cannot convert a garage bay to a bedroom - or any other non-garage room. People do. I did. But if you sell the house, you will have to convert it back. So you probably erect an intermediate "knock-out wall." - So the appraiser never counts a garage as living area unless, for some reason, the planning department approved the conversion and it passed final inspection.

All this going to the planning department, or possibly online to check plans, approvals, and inspections, takes time. And I am pretty sure a good number of appraisers don't do the work. Remember that Black couple who sued the appraiser in Marin County for undervaluing a house they had remodeled? They never got through the final inspection. And none of the appraisers caught it. But I found all the records online, clear as day. Even after they won their lawsuit, they didn't make the effort to get the upgrades through final inspection.

Anyway, if that first story is above grade, then all ANSI-compliant finished living area would qualify as living area. If it is partially below grade, and the house is backed into a hillside, it may still qualify - but I would recheck the latest GSE Guidelines on that.

 

[Fernando]

The Fairview Area in Pacifica has a lot of houses that fit the bill.

As usual, your post has logic/grammar problems; in this case: "if property is only 2 story and that level is 1000sf ....". "that level" apparently refers to Story 1. Now thank god your terminology has improved: Level -> Story.

Dont' know what you talking about.

First, you can't talk about these issues without first getting past local code. The Pacifica Planning Department has very specific garage regulations. And in fact, with all the zones and exceptions, they are fairly complex. But. you have to deal with them.

Generally, SFR houses built or updated since 1988 have to have a two-car garage. My 1953 home had a big addition in 1993, and I had to extend the garage with another bay. Unless, for some reason, you are exempt, you cannot convert a garage bay to a bedroom - or any other non-garage room. People do. I did. But if you sell the house, you will have to convert it back. So you probably erect an intermediate "knock-out wall." - So the appraiser never counts a garage as living area unless, for some reason, the planning department approved the conversion and it passed final inspection.

All this going to the planning department, or possibly online to check plans, approvals, and inspections, takes time. And I am pretty sure a good number of appraisers don't do the work. Remember that Black couple who sued the appraiser in Marin County for undervaluing a house they had remodeled? They never got through the final inspection. And none of the appraisers caught it. But I found all the records online, clear as day. Even after they won their lawsuit, they didn't make the effort to get the upgrades through final inspection.

Anyway, if that first story is above grade, then all ANSI-compliant finished living area would qualify as living area. If it is partially below grade, and the house is backed into a hillside, it may still qualify - but I would recheck the latest GSE Guidelines on that.

The Fairview Area in Pacifica has a lot of houses that fit the bill.

As usual, your post has logic/grammar problems; in this case: "if property is only 2 story and that level is 1000sf ....". "that level" apparently refers to Story 1. Now thank god your terminology has improved: Level -> Story.

I was following your train of thought using Story.

First, you can't talk about these issues without first getting past local code. The Pacifica Planning Department has very specific garage regulations. And in fact, with all the zones and exceptions, they are fairly complex. But. you have to deal with them.

Generally, SFR houses built or updated since 1988 have to have a two-car garage. My 1953 home had a big addition in 1993, and I had to extend the garage with another bay. Unless, for some reason, you are exempt, you cannot convert a garage bay to a bedroom - or any other non-garage room. People do. I did. But if you sell the house, you will have to convert it back. So you probably erect an intermediate "knock-out wall." - So the appraiser never counts a garage as living area unless, for some reason, the planning department approved the conversion and it passed final inspection.

All this going to the planning department, or possibly online to check plans, approvals, and inspections, takes time. And I am pretty sure a good number of appraisers don't do the work. Remember that Black couple who sued the appraiser in Marin County for undervaluing a house they had remodeled? They never got through the final inspection. And none of the appraisers caught it. But I found all the records online, clear as day. Even after they won their lawsuit, they didn't make the effort to get the upgrades through final inspection.

If the addition was done correctly, the MARKET determines value regardless of final inspection. I am one of the few appraisers who would check permits and final inspections in doing appraisals.
In the past when you were younger, I would went to the building departments and look at the microfiche records and print them for my workfile. Many buyers and agents don't do that.
I bet you didn't do that either (notice that I can be as arrogant as you).

Anyway, if that first story is above grade, then all ANSI-compliant finished living area would qualify as living area. If it is partially below grade, and the house is backed into a hillside, it may still qualify - but I would recheck the latest GSE Guidelines on that.

Being familiar with the tract homes in Fairview Area, you should know better (not as smart as me). My point is the converted area in the full garage is not "equal" in comparing subject and comps since it was modified after original construction. Real appraisers would determine (which you are not) if the conversion warrants to be included in total gross area. Of course you are like most appraisers and follow the rules of ANSI without giving any thought.

 

[Retired-70]

Dont' know what you talking about.



I was following your train of thought using Story.

If the addition was done correctly, the MARKET determines value regardless of final inspection. I am one of the few appraisers who would check permits and final inspections in doing appraisals.
In the past when you were younger, I would went to the building departments and look at the microfiche records and print them for my workfile. Many buyers and agents don't do that.
I bet you didn't do that either (notice that I can be as arrogant as you).

Being familiar with the tract homes in Fairview Area, you should know better (not as smart as me). My point is the converted area in the full garage is not "equal" in comparing subject and comps since it was modified after original construction. Real appraisers would determine (which you are not) if the conversion warrants to be included in total gross area. Of course you are like most appraisers and follow the rules of ANSI without giving any thought.

I really can't speak as to your house, as you haven't even given the location. I assumed you were in the SF Bay Area and knew where Pacifica was located. Daly City has many of the same kinds of homes. But Daly City has many Filipino residents (30-33% are Filipino or of Filipino ancestry), and its Planning Department has different priorities. As a consequence, I have appraised a few homes in Daly City that would not be approved anywhere else I know of. - Although every city planning department is somewhat unique in both planning and enforcement.

In the case I am talking about, as I said, certain regulations apply to houses built or updated after 1988. So, given that most houses were built in the period shortly after World War II, some with 1-car and some with 2-car garages, those with 1-car garages were grandfathered into the post-1988 restrictions. So, in those cases, a 1-car garage is acceptable. However, if we are talking about converting any garage space to living area, we can report it as GLA only if it doesn't reduce the number of bays in the garage to below 2, or to 1 if grandfathered.

A look at the Fannie Mae guidelines indicates they now require full compliance to ANSI Z765.

 

[Fernando]

I really can't speak as to your house, as you haven't even given the location. I assumed you were in the SF Bay Area and knew where Pacifica was located. Daly City has many of the same kinds of homes. But Daly City has many Filipino residents (30-33% are Filipino or of Filipino ancestry), and its Planning Department has different priorities. As a consequence, I have appraised a few homes in Daly City that would not be approved anywhere else I know of. - Although every city planning department is somewhat unique in both planning and enforcement.

You should know better. Doelger built similar style homes in Pacifica and Daly City. Sometimes near the border, you can't tell which is in which city. How did you deal with the converted rooms in garage in the past? ANSI way? Back then, illegal additions were big deal with the authorities and lenders. Now it seem it's acceptable even by Fannie using ANSI way.

In the case I am talking about, as I said, certain regulations apply to houses built or updated after 1988. So, given that most houses were built in the period shortly after World War II, some with 1-car and some with 2-car garages, those with 1-car garages were grandfathered into the post-1988 restrictions. So, in those cases, a 1-car garage is acceptable. However, if we are talking about converting any garage space to living area, we can report it as GLA only if it doesn't reduce the number of bays in the garage to below 2, or to 1 if grandfathered.

You still have to figure out if it's allowable to be grandfathered in. Not everyone is capable in dealing with the building regulations and following the planning process which takes time and money.

A look at the Fannie Mae guidelines indicates they now require full compliance to ANSI Z765.

Just like soon we have to follow 3.6 whether we like it or not. And y'all know I don't like it even when we will be forced to use it just like ANSI. Another set of rules to play in Fannie Mae's appraisal game.

 

[Retired-70]

You should know better.

Know better what?

Doelger built similar style homes in Pacifica and Daly City.

He WAS the primary builder.

Sometimes near the border, you can't tell which is in which city.

Why be nasty. I live in the Pacifica, I likely know these houses much better than you.

How did you deal with the converted rooms in garage in the past?

We just need to talk about the present, because the regulations and guidelines change.

ANSI way? Back then, illegal additions were big deal with the authorities and lenders.

In the 80s, we went through a PERIOD where these non-conforming homes could be "grandfathered in," i.e., made legal. But the owners had to ask for approval. Apparently, if they didn't do so within the given time period, they still aren't approved. But it's a question whether that is enforced.

Now it seem it's acceptable even by Fannie using ANSI way.

Yes.

You still have to figure out if it's allowable to be grandfathered in.

If a house has a 1-car garage, then almost certainly it can't be converted to living area - main point. Current 1-car garage houses built before 1988 and not updated after 1988 are probably considered legal non-conforming. Although I was told at the time that owners were supposed to apply for grandfathering, I am pretty sure many owners didn't. From the looks of things, such houses are nonetheless considered legal non-conforming.

Not everyone is capable in dealing with the building regulations and following the planning process which takes time and money.

That can cause problems.

Just like soon we have to follow 3.6 whether we like it or not. And y'all know I don't like it even when we will be forced to use it just like ANSI. Another set of rules to play in Fannie Mae's appraisal game.

Of course.l

 

[Fernando]

Know better what?

He WAS the primary builder.

Why be nasty. I live in the Pacifica, I likely know these houses much better than you.

We just need to talk about the present, because the regulations and guidelines change.

In the 80s, we went through a PERIOD where these non-conforming homes could be "grandfathered in," i.e., made legal. But the owners had to ask for approval. Apparently, if they didn't do so within the given time period, they still aren't approved. But it's a question whether that is enforced.


Yes.


If a house has a 1-car garage, then almost certainly it can't be converted to living area - main point. Current 1-car garage houses built before 1988 and not updated after 1988 are probably considered legal non-conforming. Although I was told at the time that owners were supposed to apply for grandfathering, I am pretty sure many owners didn't. From the looks of things, such houses are nonetheless considered legal non-conforming.

That can cause problems.

Of course.l

Know better what?

Besides Doelger who built homes in Pacifica and Daly City, why bring up Filipinos in Daly City. Daly City is the bedroom suburb for San Francisco. It's where many start their American dream in buying their first home there. When family expands and the Doelger home is too small on the main upper level, part of garage is converted into living space.

He WAS the primary builder.

Why be nasty. I live in the Pacifica, I likely know these houses much better than you.

We just need to talk about the present, because the regulations and guidelines change.

Yes they have changed. CA cities are pressured to build more apartment buildings. Pacifica is not building enough to meet their quota and will hear from state government.

In the 80s, we went through a PERIOD where these non-conforming homes could be "grandfathered in," i.e., made legal. But the owners had to ask for approval. Apparently, if they didn't do so within the given time period, they still aren't approved. But it's a question whether that is enforced.

In the 80s, cities allowed a way for illegal in laws and additions to become "legal" such as only family members can live there and can't be rented out. I don't know now but I would think with CA push for in laws, cities are more tolerable for in-laws legal or not. Cities prefer inlaws than build additional new apartment bldgs. Yet the construction of in laws is still not that much.

Yes.


If a house has a 1-car garage, then almost certainly it can't be converted to living area - main point. Current 1-car garage houses built before 1988 and not updated after 1988 are probably considered legal non-conforming. Although I was told at the time that owners were supposed to apply for grandfathering, I am pretty sure many owners didn't. From the looks of things, such houses are nonetheless considered legal non-conforming.

So how do you deal with legal non-conforming? Do you add it into the total gross area as indicated by ANSI?
What you have a separate grid for legal non-conforming as well as for the comps?
For me, it's easier to add it all together now because ANSI says it's fine when it's above grade. I'll do what my peers do.

That can cause problems.

Of course.l

 

[Retired-70]

Besides Doelger who built homes in Pacifica and Daly City, why bring up Filipinos in Daly City. Daly City is the bedroom suburb for San Francisco.

For example, I appraised a two-story home in Daly City, legally an SFR (according to Planning). The owner had it split into 3 separate rooms and two units. Each of the 3 rooms had two separate entrances, front and back, and 1 bathroom, but no kitchen. For a kitchen, they all shared a communal kitchen. 3 of the units were in the back half of the house, stacked above each other, with stairs running up the back zigzag connecting balconies that had the back door. Then, on the front interior of these 3 units, another set of stairs connected them to a communal kitchen. They looked exactly like motel rooms - with a communal kitchen area. The front half had 2 units with separate bathrooms and kitchens. This was back in the 2000's. Now this "SFR" was completely approved by Daly City Planning. I can't think of any other city in the area that would allow this.

I discussed this in an appraisal class with the now-deceased and well-known Dawn Molitar-Gennrich (and others), and she injected into the discussion that Daly City had a lot of Filipinos and that I needed to take that into consideration.... I won't repeat her reasoning here, as some might take offense. Of course, the discussion was after the fact.

The reality is that race and culture can play important roles in appraisal. But you keep such "comments" out of the appraisal report, even though there are behind-the-scenes issues that need to be addressed.

Of course, I didn't appraise it as an SFR. I wouldn't be surprised if they eventually found an appraiser who would!

 

[sputnam]

If Story 1 was a full garage originally built in the tract neighborhood and 50 years later, some homes had part of garage converted into living area and some better quality constructed and some not, do you include the finished area in the garage as part of GLA? In the past, No. ANSI would say so. Some comps still not showing the conversion addition.
If property is only 2 story and that level is 1000 sf, an additional 500 sf garage conversion makes big difference in value.

You want to show us where ANSI ever said you don't or can't include converted space as part of GLA? Let me help you a little bit. The term 'Gross Living Area' does not appear in the ANSI Z765 standard. ANSI Z765 is about measuring and calculating the square footage of a residence. FNMA (and the other GSEs) call the above ground, heated and finished areas GLA. The ANSI Z765 has existed since 1996. FNMA decided they wanted the residences they lend money on to be measured using the ANSI Standard. NOTHING CHANGED except now all resideintial appraiser doing appraisals destined for GSE loans are supposed to use the ANSI method for measuring and calculating the square footage of the dwelling. It's been 5 years. Surely the well to do 'Nando' can spare the $25 or so to buy a copy of the ANSI standard and to actually learn how to use it.