Is it living space?

[Gregory Beck]

Looking at the room it needs 2 things to be considered liveable 1 up to grade which it is. 2. ducted AC in the room which it isn't. Looking at the glass doors I suspect they stay closed in cold or hot weather. So I would call it a florida room put it on the grid and give it a value to the comparables. I would not include it in my living area.

 

[Richard Carlsen]

Based on what you say and what I can see, if after looking at the rooms, in my judgment they have a year round living utility and are accessed directly from the rest of the house, I'd include it in the GLA. I've done many houses from the early part of the last century that at one time had a big front porch that was enclosed and used as additional living space. As long as heat can flow to the area, maintaining the room at a temperature year round for living, I'd call it living space.

 

[Mztk1]

Jim,
These are small 1000 sf homes --> 1200+/- with the enclosed porches. I have 3 comps of very similar condition and location. Two are like the subject (enclosed porches w/ varied finish and/or lower floor levels) and one is 1200sf as originally built.

The two w/ enclosed porches were listed counting the porches as living area.

Selling prices for all three are as tight as a drum. I find it interesting that the market is clearly accepting and counting this area as living space, it's getting taxed as living space, but we appraisers continue to treat it differently. Just an observation.

As a side note, larger middle to upper market homes do not react to it as living space. I guess the lower end of the market is a little more flexible!

FTR, I split it out 99% of the time.

I use ANSI because it is something to fall back on. ANSI requires the finish of an addition to be equal to the finish of the original part of the house.

I also prefer it because there may not be a market difference this time, but the next time I appraise the house or one in that market, there may be. I do a lot of houses twice or more. If the market is not as accepting of the finished area 2 years from now I may have questions thrown at me like "How did this house shrink?" that would be difficult to answer.

The final reason I do is because I don't want to make my 1000sf + 200sf in lower quality additions appear more similar to the comparable that was originally 1200sf than it actually is. There should be two adjustments, even if they are equal, making the gross adjustment percentage higher than it would be for a comp of 1000sf with 200sf of similar porches. If it is a wash, the net adjustment stays 0% but the number of adjustments and the gross adjustments immediately show that the 1200sf comp is something slightly different than the 1000sf with 200sf of finished porch. I think if you don't break it down and show the difference it could be construed as misleading.

The physical attributes of a house are hard facts, call them like you see them.

I have never had a problem with questions regarding the way I do it. I explain my reasoning and show similar comps and have never had an issue. Polk County is notorious for these types of houses and additions.

 

[Mztk1]

Based on what you say and what I can see, if after looking at the rooms, in my judgment they have a year round living utility and are accessed directly from the rest of the house, I'd include it in the GLA. I've done many houses from the early part of the last century that at one time had a big front porch that was enclosed and used as additional living space. As long as heat can flow to the area, maintaining the room at a temperature year round for living, I'd call it living space.

But what if that front porch still had interior clap board siding, an exterior door that can shut it off the main house, older, knee wall with glass front wall, exterior windows facing from the house into the porch, etc.

I've done these older houses with the finish of that front porch is clearly equal to the rest of the house, just as I have done houses the age of the OP house that have porches clearly equal to living area as well. In those cases I count them. But in this case the exterior concrete block walls, which are atypical, the exterior sliding doors leading to the room, which are atypical, are just enough to have me view like the finished porch in an old house like formerly described above.

 

[J Grant]

Imo, if the comps have similar conversions to living space, how can you penalize the subject by not counting them? I would assume in lower value area, most of them are not permitted. therefore, basing value on a permit makes no sense. I would comment that you don't think a permit has been pulled, but that non permitted conversions are typical of area ( acutally, not an addition, conversion of porch) Imo, utility decides if they are living space, these rooms have permanent floors, ceilings, windows, electric etc. The concrete blocks are cosmetic and could be covered with drywall or even curtains, again, depending on area, this kind of semi finish would be acceptable.

 

[Mztk1]

The concrete blocks are cosmetic and could be covered with drywall or even curtains, again, depending on area, this kind of semi finish would be acceptable.

Drywall is an expense. Curtains are personal property. The fact is the concrete block walls make the finish inferior. If there is no reaction that is okay, give the finished room the same SF adjustment as you would regular living area, but I do believe there is a difference and you just stated you believe so too, calling it semi-finished. It should be looked at different in the grid, IMO.

There is a custom quality house that was built through Polk County in the 60s and 70s that have the side walls concrete block and the front and rear of the house frame. It was said to be better for hurricane resistance. These concrete block walls are generally left to show as blocks on the inside of the house, but they are a different quality, larger block, then what we have here. There is no hard and fast rule, always exceptions, and that's what makes it gray.

 

[J Grant]

Again, this is an older, low income area, and one has to assume other non permitted additions have other funky finishes, such as the exposed block in this one, but one would have to know the area and see the other comps. IMo, exposed block is not utility, just cosmetic, even though it is inferior, the point about the curtains is that it can be "cured" easily, therefore to a typical buyer in that area, the added utility of the living space will far outweigh the inferior unfinished walls. They can be stuccoed over, painted etc. One assumes the rest of the house is not so great, many of these older homes have mismatched floors room to room, homemade cabinets or weird built ins, etc, this standard would not apply in a more upscale area, where such a finish as block walls would be untypical and undesirable.

 

[Mztk1]

Again, this is an older, low income area, and one has to assume other non permitted additions have other funky finishes, such as the exposed block in this one, but one would have to know the area and see the other comps. IMo, exposed block is not utility, just cosmetic, even though it is inferior, the point about the curtains is that it can be "cured" easily, therefore to a typical buyer in that area, the added utility of the living space will far outweigh the inferior unfinished walls. They can be stuccoed over, painted etc. One assumes the rest of the house is not so great, many of these older homes have mismatched floors room to room, homemade cabinets or weird built ins, etc, this standard would not apply in a more upscale area, where such a finish as block walls would be untypical and undesirable.

The block walls in these types of houses are typical only when there are finished porches and the porches are not 100% finished. There are houses in the neighborhood I am sure than don't have the finish and others that have superior finish to the subject, and others that are the same size or larger than the subject without counting any finished porch.

I am thinking about my counties where the assessor shows "Base" and then breaks down finished porches separately and then adds everything together to show GLA. They typically show their math. I suppose not all counties in Florida are like that. When I have a house like the subject, even in these markets of fair quality, I will not count the area as living space, look at the break down in public records of the comps and if they have finished porches I actually call each agent and discuss the finish with them. If the comp has similar finish they are adjusted against eachother in one of the blank spaces of the grid; but if the finished space was fully finished with drywall and perfect, I will put it up in the overall living area and explain why. Also, when a house is 200sf larger than the subject as originally built but equal in size counting the semi-finished rooms in the subject, then it would be inaccurate to reflect the subject as equal. "Cosmetic" affects value too and any difference in cosmetic should be discussed and accounted for.

 

[David Sawyer]

Wendy,
Good thread! I am faced with this analysis many times. On older houses in Florida built in the 60's & 70's, these rooms were typically "Florida rooms" for the snowbirds 2nd home during the season when air conditioning was not a consideration or problem.

In our county, the county property assessor typically classifieds these areas as "finished enclosed porch" and is not included in the base or living area sq footage. However, my office and family room is included in one of these "finished enclosed porches" of 264 sq ft complete with sliders, new tile flooring, the old paneling was wallpapered, and a separate split system HVAC system. The majority of our time is spent in this "living area" There has been a 681 sq ft lanai added that is adjacent to the "enclosed finished porch" I would difinitely include this in the gross living area since it is (1) finished, enclosed areas of the house that are suitable for year-round use, with walls, floors and ceilings that are similar to the rest of the house.


Upon exam of your particular situation, I would count the one area with the a/c in the gross living area while the area without the a/c would be treated differently.

 

[Couch Potato]

I'm with David on this one Wendy. The one with the ducted HVAC I would count as GLA, but the other I would call an enclosed porch.