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Is Uber The AMC Model ? Mit Study Says Uber Drivers Make Less Than Min. Wage

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Govt does not have to force anybody to do anything
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all they need to do is eliminate the bundled fee provision in the HUD
So which is it? Do you need government to do something for you or not? You obviously do.

all I ask is the AMC 's stop getting a govt sponsored entitlement that protects THEIR business model in the form of bundled fee provision allowing present fee splits of an appraisal fee.


The term "entitlement" has a definition in the English language and that definition does not include "a lack of prohibition on certain conduct". The feds haven't outlawed bundling all of the appraisal-related services into a single "bundled fee". You want the government to act, to add a new restriction prohibiting that.

So when I ask you how you think AMCs will compete with each other for business at the lenders, you are capable of envisioning them competing on the basis of appraisal quality and turn times, but not on fee?

AMC#1 - I can deliver appraisal fees of $500, 1-week turn and a minimum quality rating of x

AMC#2 - I can deliver appraisal fees of $495, 1-week turn and a minimum quality rating of x

AMC#3 - I can deliver appraisal fees of $395, 1-week turn and a minimum quality rating of x

If both are capable of delivering the same (from the bank's perspective) widgets in the same time frame, then how does the Principle of Substitution not come into play?
 
Don't get me wrong. I completely support the government forcing lenders to isolate out your appraisal fee from the other services in their disclosure form - AND to pay the AMC overhead out of their own end.

Mainly because it will deprive you of the ability to say the reason you get paid less is because the borrowers aren't aware of how low your fee is. Personally, I don't think any borrower even cares how much you get paid, except to the extent they already think you get paid too much.
 
Don't get me wrong. I completely support the government forcing lenders to isolate out your appraisal fee from the other services in their disclosure form - AND to pay the AMC overhead out of their own end.

Mainly because it will deprive you of the ability to say the reason you get paid less is because the borrowers aren't aware of how low your fee is. Personally, I don't think any borrower even cares how much you get paid, except to the extent they already think you get paid too much.

It's not bout the borrower caring, since as you say they might not care, it is about removing the incentive of AMC's to push fees lower because current fee bundling allows them to make their profit from the % of appraisal fee they can retain as profit.
 
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So which is it? Do you need government to do something for you or not? You obviously do.



The term "entitlement" has a definition in the English language and that definition does not include "a lack of prohibition on certain conduct". The feds haven't outlawed bundling all of the appraisal-related services into a single "bundled fee". You want the government to act, to add a new restriction prohibiting that.

So when I ask you how you think AMCs will compete with each other for business at the lenders, you are capable of envisioning them competing on the basis of appraisal quality and turn times, but not on fee?



If both are capable of delivering the same (from the bank's perspective) widgets in the same time frame, then how does the Principle of Substitution not come into play?

An appraiser is not a widget, banks are still responsible for their quality and quality and credibility amount the appraisals differ ( and the appraisers who do them)= why some banks do not use an AMC now.

An AMC if they compete on appraisal fee to a lender now, under current system, the AMC does so by gouging down what they pay to appraiser. Let an AMC compete on THEIR service fee alone. Whatever happens to appraisal fees, it will at least happen without the interference of enormous pressure from AMC 's to lower appraisal fees since doing so ensures their profit margin.
 
The pattern of behavior these lenders have engaged in demonstrates exactly what their real attitudes are towards appraisals. It may not be fair and it may not be right, but that doesn't alter the facts of the matter.

You and I don't consider appraisals widgets. Unfortunately nobody but appraisers care what appraisers think.

As for
Let an AMC compete on THEIR service fee alone.
by what mechanism would that happen? What would it take to prevent AMCs from competing to deliver the lowest appraisal fees? What would it take to prevent the lenders from competing with each other on the basis of their fees?

C'mon, you know the answer to this one. I'm not wasting my time marching you through this line of questioning without understanding - in advance - exactly where it's going to end up.
 
The pattern of behavior these lenders have engaged in demonstrates what their real attitudes are towards appraisals.

You and I don't consider appraisals widgets. Unfortunately nobody but appraisers care what appraisers think.

Regulators care per due diligence and a number of banks and lenders and investors and secondary market such as fannie cares.

As for by what mechanism would that happen? What would it take to prevent AMCs from competing to deliver the lowest appraisal fees? C'mon, you know the answer to this one. I'm not wasting my time marching you through this line of questioning without understanding - in advance - exactly where it's going to end up.

With HUD fee split changed, if an the AMC wants to beat out a competing AMC by offering a bank a panel of appraisers who will work for a lower fee, allowing bank to pass on that cost to borrower, then the AMC would have to do it the hard way ,- assemble panel of appraiser vendors willing to work for less, tha amount of less is disclosed/transparent rather than the AMC using ongoing tactics of assigning orders to wring lower fees from appraisers. IF that happens so be it,

Despite the fact that an AMC might dangle a lower appraisal fee to a lender to win business, removing the incentive of an AMC profit enabled by their paying less /choosing cheaper fee appraisers would remove fees from that level of inventive to drive them down.

In addition, lenders having to pay for AMC service apart from appraisal fee could change market share as well. Goes without saying if lenders and banks could not profit by AMC ownership or affiliation that change the dynamic .Then at least appraisal fees would be free of this additional profit back to other parties pressure.
 
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You're kidding, right?

March 31, 2018 - Bundled fees. AMCs are competing with each other on the basis of the lowest bundled fee
April, 1, 2018 - Separate fees. AMCs are competing with each other on the basis of the lowest combination of appraisal fees+AMC fees

No change in their panel is necessary. No change in the manner in which they shop for fees is necessary. They continue to use a combination of a base fee, with appeals for fee upgrades for the tough ones as they occur. The low fee providers don't have any more alternatives for higher fees on 04/01 than they had on 03/31, so they'll obviously continue on as before. The only thing that changes is appraisers can't blame their fee problems on the lack of specific disclosure of their fee to an apathetic borrower.

What indication does anyone have that borrowers are outraged that fee appraisers only get paid $300 for a 1004? Even if you want to say that borrowers will be outraged that AMCs get paid $300 for their end, how does pressure on the AMCs end result in borrowers being stoked to pay a higher fee to the appraiser?
 
You're kidding, right?

March 31, 2018 - Bundled fees. AMCs are competing with each other on the basis of the lowest bundled fee
April, 1, 2018 - Separate fees. AMCs are competing with each other on the basis of the lowest combination of appraisal fees+AMC fees

It is STILL the combination of appraisal fees and AMC fees with separate fees, rather than an AMC fee alone being the competition to win lender work.

No change in their panel is necessary. No change in the manner in which they shop for fees is necessary. They continue to use a combination of a base fee, with appeals for fee upgrades for the tough ones as they occur. The low fee providers don't have any more alternatives for higher fees on 04/01 than they had on 03/31, so they'll obviously continue on as before. The only thing that changes is appraisers can't blame their fee problems on the lack of specific disclosure of their fee to an apathetic borrower.

What indication does anyone have that borrowers are outraged that fee appraisers only get paid $300 for a 1004?

If regulators were concerned about appraiser pool available to borrowers,the regulators should be concerned about the low fee result of AMC model driving many good appraises away from GSE work through AMC's as well as seeing the lower fee appraisers taking on enormous volume resulting in short time spent on reports with any resulting short cuts. If regulators are not concerned about that, that is fail on their part- they do not have a good record of listening to those on the front lines, they did not listen to the appraiser petition about lender pressure pre housing market collapse and they did not listen to those auditors trying to warn about Madoff. Their track records is clean up after a mess, not make sensible moves to prevent it.

This was never about borrower outrage though you try to make it about that. But since you went there-borrowers are complacent about fee splits because the borrower is kept in the dark about HOW a fee split can influence he way their appraiser is selected, such as bid out email like a flea market to cheapest .

Borrowers do not see fee splits, in states that require disclosure till after they get the appraisal, and even then they still have no idea HOW the appraiser was selected, aka that a more experienced or competent appraiser might have been available but denied the assignment because they charged $20 more ( covered by what borrower paid ).

THAT might get borrower' attention, disclose in full the manner of appraisal selection such as email bids or texts sent on an iPhone with fast click or cheapest bid wins the order. ..This should be disclosed upfront, when borrower applies for loan and pays appraisal fee.

Do you think a borrower might be outraged, or concern, if there was actual transparency and honesty about appraisal ordering presented to them at time of application such as below?

Borrower- disclosure Your appraisal fee is $450 . This lender uses an AMC as it relieves the lender of burden of assigning. The lender gets the AMC service at no cost to them, because AMC makes their overhead and profit by assigning to a lower fee fee appraiser. You will see none of the savings back if your appraisal is assigned at any fee level, for example, $250.

Your appraisal may be bid out for this assignment by text , app, or email and assigned to a lower fee vendor. Though it is represented fee does not matter since the work only has to meet minimum standards, there can be a great deal of difference among appraiser competence and experience. Your lower fee selected appraiser will likely be doing a large volume of work to compensate for the lower fee , meaning they will spend as least time possible on your appraisal"


You think a borrower might care if they got the above disclosure at time of application?
 
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If regulators were concerned about appraiser pool available to borrowers,the regulators should be concerned about the low fee result of AMC model driving many good appraises away from GSE work through AMC's as well as seeing the lower fee appraisers taking on enormous volume resulting in short time spent on reports with any resulting short cuts. If regulators are not concerned about that, that is fail on thir part- they do not have a good record of listening to those on the front lines, they did not listen to the appraiser petition about lender pressure pre housing market collapse and they did not listen to those auditors trying to warn about Madoff. Their track records is clean up after a mess, not make sensible moves to prevent it.

First off, what evidence do you have that the lenders are using a lot of *unsafe* appraisals? After all, that is the stated purpose of the banking regs that relate to appraisals. Right? The point being that IRL a sloppy appraisal doesn't necessarily mean its an unsafe appraisal. (and before you drag out your virtue signaling kit, let me just cut you off and say that acknowledging the distinction between sloppy vs biased is not a form of advocacy for sloppy appraisals)

Secondly, the Appraiser's Petition was about LO pressure on appraisers to make values and appraiser independence issues, not about appraisers taking shortcuts or being lazy.

Thirdly, you're still calling on regulators to intervene in the market to protect fees. Which I wouldn't mind if you would just be honest that it's what you're doing. You need a miracle, and you need them to deliver it to you.

Lastly, if "separating" fee disclosures isn't about the borrowers then who it is about? The only other party in that loop is the lender, and I think it's safe to say that the lender understands the breakdown of that bundled fee.
 
see above post 48, as far as borrower, it is not just the fee, it is about impact on fee bid for cheaper impact on who is selected for assignment and borrowers are kept in dark about it and disclosure abut process, upfront at application is kept from them. I have work to do will visit thread later or tomorrow - but one more thing, this thread was about UBER and comparison AMCs, UBER does not use technology to find the lowest fee driver, the drivers all get same rates in the area and time and selection of driver is made by proximity to passenger

I have been honest for a long time that if I benefit from regulators stepping in to protect appraiser fees, as you put it , of course I would like that. However, I am not asking for a specific fee $ amount as a protection, rather than a correction for present system, which protects AMC profit at expense of lowering appraiser fees via the present bundled fee.

No guarantee I would personally benefit, if AMC's now assigning at $250 flipped to assigning at g $400, it would draw back a number of appraisers who now shun AMC work, perhaps some more qualified than I am . But I would rather compete on quality then on fee if that were to happen. That is how I competed to get the direct lender work I have. I don't have some direct lender clients but have others...they are at least not choosing by low fees since like VA, they pay a uniform fee to appraisers in a region based on surveys for regular/non complex. Appraisers competing on quality rather than fee would be hard to deny as a benefit to secondary market or borrowers.
 
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