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Live "in-person" Education From A Distance

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Just to add my 2 cents, I'm an educator, user of education services, and develop course material. I also happen to know Wayne for many years, and while I do not disagree that he may have said the things you have quoted, I might point out that he is the Chairperson of the AQB and not the final word. Knowing him and the other members of the AQB I would suspect he is just being the mouthpiece of the board, as it is his job to do so. I say this because most of the rants on this thread are directed personally at Wayne and not the bigger group he represents and speaks on behalf of.

As someone who has put on courses all over the country, each state has its own crazy complicated way of approving courses, requirements for verifying attendance, and fees. If the AQB were to implement a new delivery mechanism, they would also have to address requirements for compliance, make-up attendance, technological delivery, student questions during
 
would have required a one or two hour drive each way.
For week-long Appraisal Institute classes, it is all but impossible to transit, adding hotel fees to the cost of education.
I've taken courses in Denver, Albuquerque, Houston, Ruidoso, Lawrence, Wichita, and Nashville...It was a price I was willing to pay. 100 miles? 2 hours? That's "around the corner" for rural appraisers...and I like to get away from home occasionally. It is part of the cost of doing business. Why not lobby for CE to be abolished and all appraisal education to be voluntary? The quality of CE would increase by magnitudes. Look at non-regulated "things". As a registered geologist I have no CE requirement. But when I take a petroleum course, I don't blink when the 2 day class costs $1,200 and it's in Denver or Columbus. It's the cost of improving one's skills. There are no mindless piffle taught for the masses who are forced to be there like in appraisal. Why do I still take those courses? Because it makes me money by improving my skills and gives me opportunity to network with other geologists and engineers that might throw some work my way...
Appraisers generally seek the cheapest course that they can whip through in 30 minutes. Plenty of evidence here on this forum where appraisers are not seeking high quality education
That is the sad part.
Affordability comes into play as well now more than ever
Goes hand in hand with what Trice is saying. Many, maybe most appraisers are not trying to actually improve or even maintain their skills. They want to punch the ticket for next years' license. And with that attitude CE is pretty worthless for anything except to renew the license. Students who put nothing in it rarely get anything out of it and don't care that they are only there as a place holder. Sadly, it likely is very much a reflection of the quality of work you can expect out of those who seek only the "easiest, cheapest" alternatives - on line education, etc.

The live via video concept is more acceptable to me if "on line" education is abolished. I might make the exception that USPAP instructors not be required to be certified and USPAP be sent to all appraisers with a code attached and you have to complete an on line course to verify the code in order to keep your license.

The "go to meeting" or "join me" type of classroom might work. But the cost should be as high as the cost of a live class. The problem I see is the lack of high quality courses and instructors willing to develop such courses because of compensation. Anyone who has tried to develop a simple 7 hour class knows what I mean. It is hours to develop, and hours to prepare slides, and hours of preparation. And all for what? To teach a class maybe 10 times in 4 years? Specialized classes will not be taught often. Appraisal organizations, OTOH, are not willing to invest in developing these courses and depend upon individuals to do most of the work while they sell the class to the membership.
 
Just to add my 2 cents, I'm an educator, user of education services, and develop course material. I also happen to know Wayne for many years, and while I do not disagree that he may have said the things you have quoted, I might point out that he is the Chairperson of the AQB and not the final word. Knowing him and the other members of the AQB I would suspect he is just being the mouthpiece of the board, as it is his job to do so. I say this because most of the rants on this thread are directed personally at Wayne and not the bigger group he represents and speaks on behalf of.

As someone who has put on courses all over the country, each state has its own crazy complicated way of approving courses, requirements for verifying attendance, and fees. If the AQB were to implement a new delivery mechanism, they would also have to address requirements for compliance, make-up attendance, technological delivery, student questions during

I appreciate you wanting to stick up for Mr. Wayne R. Miller. I have kept my statements here civil. You indicated that he is not the "final word". If he put the matter in front of the AQB (Board) and received proper feedback as expected, I will be the first to eat crow and apologize. He did not indicate the people that he got feedback from. I doubt he had time to confer with each state. I don't know if his position is agreeable by all the other members of the board. It was contingent on him to provide those details and which three of the board members affirmed the final position. The fact that he leaves questions unanswered is a testament to his way of doing business. I did not pressure him to move quickly, and indicated that I have months to have a proper dialog about the matter.

So that it is clear to anyone reading, my only question to the board was to find out the proper procedure to have the issue addressed. [The Chair shall be responsible for establishing operating and administrative procedures for the Qualifications Board, task forces, and other committees groups, and for implementing and directing their broad operating processes.]

I was offered a teleconference. I instead indicated that I opted to put everything into writing. Rather than give me the details about how the process for consideration works, he wrote the letter (referenced above) saying that the Board was going to leave the issue alone (because nothing needed to be changed.)

His two letters to me were dismissive and neither actually addressed what I was asking for. He did not fully consider the actual issues at hand, nor did he put the matter in front of the Board (at least to my understanding, although I have requested supporting documentation about the Quorum that might have met together.)

While he might be a professional, his "shrugged" Brush-off of the matter was not what I expected. As someone who has a very important position in the oversight of professional appraisers, I anticipated an actual discussion before the Board would make a hasty decision. Mr. Wayne R. Miller did not seek input from me. He never asked me a single question before formulating his (Board's) position. He sent me two letters, neither of which actually addressed the particulars that I submitted to him. I actually asked to have the matter put in front of the Board and put out for discussion to the appropriate stakeholders.

I am not a big fan of the way the AQB simply pushes the responsibility for "distance education" to IDECC (a private enterprise). But what I am asking is not rocket science.

Mr. Wayne R. Miller has pointed out that the (individual) states "and their regulatory agencies" expect the education provider to be able to prove each student has attended the entire course offering. He did not address the fact that the states are actually forced to follow the 1994 decision. It is not a free-will choice at each state board. By pointing his finger at the states to support his board's position, he is being disingenuous.

He then talked about the cost for IDECC certification as not being "prohibitive given the typical course offering volume and the revenue earned by most providers from student registration fees." Again, his dismissive attitude and misdirection does not address my concerns. I am not sure how the profit of an educational provider is even something that should be on the mind of the AQB. It is not part of the mission of the AQB to worry about such things.

He finished his most current letter saying that the AQB would consider changes to the educational criteria. While it reads like he is willing to listen, the fact is that the multiple messages that I sent in advance were not actually considered at all. As mentioned by two other people in this thread, the issue has been put in front of him in the past, with the same "do-nothing" results. I am not certain what the AQB is working on that is so important and time-consuming that they cannot address the concerns I have put in front of them.

My understanding is that, when issues arise, the AQB would obtain input from stakeholders. The Board By-Laws anticipate a deliberative period that might include public hearings, research, or discussion. It is unfortunate that I have to start such discussion on a message board, since this should be taking place under the purview of the AQB.

I presume that if there are three people in this single thread who have been "ignored" by Mr. Wayne R. Miller (or his predecessors), that there probably have been others who have had the same concerns. Like I said, I have almost two years to push this matter, and while I do not mean to disparage Mr. Miller or the AQB, I would not be requesting feedback in this forum if he was performing his professional duties in a proper manner.
 
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The "go to meeting" or "join me" type of classroom might work. But the cost should be as high as the cost of a live class. The problem I see is the lack of high quality courses and instructors willing to develop such courses because of compensation. Anyone who has tried to develop a simple 7 hour class knows what I mean. It is hours to develop, and hours to prepare slides, and hours of preparation. And all for what? To teach a class maybe 10 times in 4 years? Specialized classes will not be taught often. Appraisal organizations, OTOH, are not willing to invest in developing these courses and depend upon individuals to do most of the work while they sell the class to the membership.

Two hours each way added to an 8-hour course is exhausting, mentally and physically, for many people.

My initial concern started about 15 years ago when I wanted to attend a three-hour seminar that was three or four hours from home. I am taking up the issue now because I have been taking webinar-courses for my own (non-appraiser) education. It works great for me, and when I found that an AI course would not even let me pay a premium to add a webcam (because of the fear of going against the AQB) then I decided to find out how to get the matter resolved.

I am hoping that better course offerings will be a result. Why would you prefer the on-line options to go away? That portion of your comment isn't clear to me.
 
Two hours each way added to an 8-hour course is exhausting, mentally and physically, for many people.
Tell me about it. I take six pills a day, suffer from diabetes, high blood pressure and back pain. So? I inspected property this morning and came back home and went to bed for a couple hours. I don't like it, but I've done that many times - Tulsa is 100 miles away. OKC 200; Little Rock is 220...taken multiple classes in all. It isn't impossible...frankly, sometimes I've went the evening before and/or laid over the night after. So what? I drove to Pennsylvania and taught classes - 2 day classes with one day to move to the next place - In all I was gone 12 days and left the last class in Pittsburgh area and drove into Indiana after class and got up at 4 am to get on back home...1,000 miles. Again, so what? It's not the end of the world to take a CE class.

Why would you prefer the on-line options to go away?
I thought I explained why.

On line is dumbed down crap and requires an appraisal education mill shill to "monitor" the class. The live USPAP means a real instructor vetted by test is there. And for other classes there are no instructors. So instructors cannot make any money thus only the least enthused and most incompetent will eventually be left to teach. The good instructor cannot take time to develop a class and not make any money to compensate for it. And, if a good class Mckissyourass will clone it and sell it for half price using some dreadful flip a page presentation you print off in advance and fill out the test... OR, worse and I know this has happened, a trainee took the CE on line for the appraiser. That makes the on line system a joke.

How insane. We require students to show photo ID, we make them sign in 2 to 4 times a day (depending on state); and there are instructors who have been sanctioned and their school closed for not staying the entire 7 hours. So we go on line, cannot prove to anyone that is actually "us" and finish in 4 hours and call it 7. Stupid system. IF we vet hours by the time clock, it is a sham and if we vet hours by what you cover, then let the live CE do the same. Sometimes you cover the material in 6 hours.

In my own classes, things simply don't stay exactly on the clock and every class I've taught I either had to rush to finish on time, or I had to pull an extra presentation out of the hat and extend the discussion so as to get a full 7 hours in.
 
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In my experience, I have taken some online courses where I learned more and covered more material than live classes. And didn't have to listen to stuff that did me absolutely no good. Tests are good too whether online or in class, IMO.
 
...OR, worse and I know this has happened, a trainee took the CE on line for the appraiser. That makes the on line system a joke.

So a system that allows "eyes on" the student attending a live class via webcam (or other platform) would assure the student is not having someone sit in his place?

I think that many people would actually pay a premium for such classes, due to the time savings.

While I appreciate your honesty about your physical limitations, when you get even older, they may be more severe. Maybe you will agree with my position when you are no longer able to drive four hours and simply go to bed for a couple of hours to feel good again.
 
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I don't think we should even mention the APB in this thread. :nono:

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The Webinar and podcast formats are already being used to deliver instruction and speeches and such.

I've put in my fair share of hours behind a podium and IMO the value of a live instructor lies not in the actual delivery of the course content but their ability to effectively interact with course participants and answer questions and to moderate the interactions between other course participants. An instructor reading out of a text isn't adapting their environment any better than the text itself.

If I can't find 3 or 4 different ways to illustrate a concept then I'm not trying hard enough. If I can't adapt my presentation to field and then USE to my advantage the questions that course participants are asking then that means my own grasp of the material needs improvement. Some people benefit from seeing multiple - or at least different - types of illustrations. I think an instructor needs to carry a big bag-o-tricks with them if they're going to stand in front of a room full of appraisers and presume to try to tell them anything about appraising.
 
I don't think we should even mention the APB in this thread. :nono:

Why do you think that we should not mention the AQB? (I presume you made a typo, as nobody has mentioned the APB?)
 
when you get even older, they may be more severe. Maybe you will agree with my position when you are no longer able to drive four hours and simply go to bed for a couple of hours to feel good again.
Currently do you ever take a driving vacation? Or require a plane in order to have a vacation?

I'm already in geezerhood. I didn't mention the knee surgery that I need and have put off and now will go back to the orthopedic surgeon again to see if we can work on it some more. But when I get to the point I cannot sit in a car for 4 hours, then I need to retire and will. I will because that means I likely cannot do the normal function of an appraiser. I would be unable to inspect an attic, an upper floor, a crawl space, or other such elderly hazard. I would not be able to walk through a poultry barn or dairy. Time to hang it up.

Four hours in a car to me is visiting the neighbors. I drive to OKC a couple times a year just to visit my old oily friends and have lunch. Up at 6 am, there by 10, visit a couple hours and have lunch; then drive back home before the six o'clock news - might even stop at Pops and have a unique soda and then take a picture of the old Round Barn on Route 66, or take a 2 lane back home through places I haven't seen recently. I just don't see a 200 mile drive being a "biggie". I do that on a Sunday afternoon drive in the National Forest.

And outside the most remote areas of the nation, there is usually closer classes. Thus, there is no crying need for on line courses except for on line education mill who can "teach" by computer and pocket your money without lifting a finger once the class is developed. Ca-Ching... Our local appraisal group sponsors about 35 live hours every license cycle. Our USPAP instructor drives up 120 miles and he's older than me. And he teaches the update one day, and another class the next. The other instructor that has taught USPAP teaches for AI and he will be in this state several times annually teaching that and other courses. Again, he's hardly much younger than me and lives in Dallas.

As far as I am concerned CE can be abolished if all we get is the piffle provided by on line providers. And I am sick of whining appraisers belly aching because it is inconvenient for them to actually meet a scheduled class and/or have to actually leave their own home town and attend it. Aw, gee. I have to get out of bed before 8 am and may even have to take a bath. It is pretty obvious a high percent of our peers think they know it all, need no further education, despise the very concept of CE. And if it is that big a deal, then I urge you to call TAF and beg for relief - beg them to abolish CE altogether. I am sure AQB will listen. :rof:

My CPA attends CE in a resort like Branson, and takes a couple extra days and relaxes. I've done that many times. When I went to CE in Ruidoso, NM my brother went with me and played the slots while I went to class, then we took off and went to SW Colorado, and meandered back through Buena Vista and Leadville, then on to Denver, where we visited not only kin but one of our favorite forumites of that era - DeeDee made an 3,000 mile loop out of it. If I can't make a 200 mile trip for CE, then I am ready for the rest home.

So a system that allows "eyes on" the student attending a live class via webcam (or other platform) would assure the student is not having someone sit in his place?
No system is fool proof but you can bet at least a woman isn't sitting in for a man. And we can scan our photo ID for comparison.

I have taken some online courses where I learned more
And how much did you retain? I've yet to learn anything new in the two courses I've taken on line.

I can size up an appraiser by walking into their office. If there isn't a single appraisal textbook or guide visible, then I know what I am dealing with...and truly, CE isn't going to do them any good - on line or live. With that I agree.
 
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