Must 3 pronged outlets be grounded to meet HUD MPS?

[incognito]

4150D:

Typical conditions that would require further inspection or testing by qualified individuals or entities:
• infestation – evidence of termites
• inoperative or inadequate plumbing, heating or electrical systems

Check mechanical, plumbing and electrical systems in the subject property to ensure that they are in proper working order. This examination entails turning on the applicable systems and observing their performance. If any conditions exist that would affect the health or safety of the occupants, condition the appraisal on the repair or alteration of the condition” and/or a “required inspection.” The following is not an all-inclusive list, but a listing of the more common readily observable property deficiencies.

Electrical System
• Examine the electrical system to ensure that there is no visible frayed wiring, or exposed wires in living areas and note if the amperage appears adequate for the property.
• Operate a representative number of lighting fixtures, switches and receptacles inside the house, garage and on the exterior walls and note any deficiencies. If the appliances present at the time of the inspection do not appear to be reasonable (undersized), determine if there is adequate amperage to run “standard” appliances, as per local code.
• The appraiser is not required to insert any tool, probe or testing device inside the panels or to dismantle any electrical device or control.

To me it is pretty clear that I need to be testing some outlets. I use a 3 prong analyzer with GFCI tester. It there is ANY mis wiring (reverse polarity, false ground or inoperative GFCI), I call for it's replacement. Additionally, and outlet/switch/fixture marked by an inspector is also conditioned for repair.

 

[Calvin the Airedale]

I understand why people swap out two pronged outlets for ungrounded three pronged outlets. It's a hassle running around trying to find an adapator every time you want to run an appliance.

Many don't know that you can legally swap out the old two prong outlets for ungrounded GFCI outlets and meet bot NEC and FHA requirements. The GF interupter trips the circuit if there is a short.

GFCI outlets can be bought for $3+-/outlet around here.

 

[Mr Rex]

4150D:

To me it is pretty clear that I need to be testing some outlets. I use a 3 prong analyzer with GFCI tester. It there is ANY mis wiring (reverse polarity, false ground or inoperative GFCI), I call for it's replacement. Additionally, and outlet/switch/fixture marked by an inspector is also conditioned for repair.

So do you call for upgrading to GFCI in wet areas? Arguably more dangerous than an ungrounded 3 wire receptacle.:new_smile-l:

 

[Verne Hebert]

This thread has gone all over the place.

On the older systems it is not physical possible to ground a new 3 prong receptacle...............because there is no ground wire; they are a two wire system. It is generally accepted that a three wire system is "safer"...but there is nothing wrong with a 2 wire system which has a hot and neutral only.

I had this brilliant inspector call this out on my last rental sale...."receptacles are not grounded in some areas" with no further explanation or clarification. He obviously could see the original wiring in the primary panel and hopefully had the experience to recognize the two wire circuits.

I use a tester because I am used to it.

You can require the grounding of two wire systems all you want......and it just ain't going to happen....just causing problems...and demonstrating you are beyond your comfort level.

 

[Calvin the Airedale]

This thread has gone all over the place.

On the older systems it is not physical possible to ground a new 3 prong receptacle...............because there is no ground wire; they are a two wire system. It is generally accepted that a three wire system is "safer"...but there is nothing wrong with a 2 wire system which has a hot and neutral only.

I had this brilliant inspector call this out on my last rental sale...."receptacles are not grounded in some areas" with no further explanation or clarification. He obviously could see the original wiring in the primary panel and hopefully had the experience to recognize the two wire circuits.

I use a tester because I am used to it.

You can require the grounding of two wire systems all you want......and it just ain't going to happen....just causing problems...and demonstrating you are beyond your comfort level.

No one in this thread has called for the grounding of two pronged outlets!

Perhaps you should go back to the beginning and start again.

 

[CANative]

Calvin...The rules for Section 8 are different because HUD does not want to be perceived as subsidizing slumlords. Can you imagine the debacle if some poor family burned to death in a HUD Section 8 hovel?

Stick to the published MPRs.

 

[Verne Hebert]

No we are discussing the conversion of non grounded outlets ("two prong") to three prong outlets which enable grounding if you have three wires to connect. I, of course assumed the two prong outlets were fed with two wires, i.e. 12-2 or 14-2. I trust it is an older home.......why would someone install two prong outlets in a three wire system, and if governed by code today, would not be signed-off. I certainly find this safer than pluggin in adapters.

And conduit does not ground wire. It can help ground the panel, if metal conduit, when tied to copper water pipe or a ground rod.

I think it would be very rare that non-grounded outlets cause a fire. It is more likely older two wire receptacles, charred, and worned wiring tied to the connections. I consider it a wise upgrade particularly if the receptacle has seen honest amperage draw in its life, ie. heaters, coffee pots, microwaves, hair dryers.

 

[Calvin the Airedale]

No we are discussing the conversion of non grounded outlets ("two prong") to three prong outlets which enable grounding if you have three wires to connect. I, of course assumed the two prong outlets were fed with two wires, i.e. 12-2 or 14-2. I trust it is an older home.......why would someone install two prong outlets in a three wire system, and if governed by code today, would not be signed-off. I certainly find this safer than pluggin in adapters.

And conduit does not ground wire. It can help ground the panel, if metal conduit, when tied to copper water pipe or a ground rod.

I think it would be very rare that non-grounded outlets cause a fire. It is more likely older two wire receptacles, charred, and worned wiring tied to the connections. I consider it a wise upgrade particularly if the receptacle has seen honest amperage draw in its life, ie. heaters, coffee pots, microwaves, hair dryers.

2 pronged outlets were changed to ungrounded three pronged outlets, a condition clearly stated by HUD as a safety hazard (see the PDF attached to the OP). The cure for such a condition is to either: change the outlets back to 2 pronged outlets; or ground the 3 pronged outlets; or change the three pronged outlets to ungrounded GFCI outlets. Any of these 3 courses of action will make the wiring conform with NEC and HUD stipulations on such a condition.

The original intent of this post is to ask if anyone can cite an FHA MPS for this problem. But even if such a source cannot be found, FHA clearly requires one to sample outlets and to report and call for correction of any safety hazards.

If HUD clearly identifies this condition as a safety hazard in any other rule making, how can an appraiser doing FHA work claim that it is not a safety
hazard?

 

[Vermonter]

The original intent of this post is to ask if anyone can cite an FHA MPS for this problem. But even if such a source cannot be found, FHA clearly requires one to sample outlets and to report and call for correction of any safety hazards.

If HUD clearly identifies this condition as a safety hazard in any other rule making, how can an appraiser doing FHA work claim that it is not a safety
hazard?

We are not electricians, nor does HUD want us to be. If you think there's a problem call for inspection.

Observe and report.

 

[Calvin the Airedale]

We are not electricians, nor does HUD want us to be. If you think there's a problem call for inspection.

Observe and report.

If one tests a three pronged outlet (as FHA expects be done on a spot basis) and finds it ungrounded, why should one ask for an inspection?

Just require the outlet be grounded, swapped back for a two pronged outlet, or swapped for a GFCI outlet?

One need not be an electrician to call for such a repair.