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Number of Certified USPAP instructors. Wanna guess?

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To all,

Some comments. I took the course and passed the test.

The course is designed for instructors to learn just what needs to be emphasized. it does not impute that passing it makes anyone smarter than anyone else.

The test is still in its experimental stage. it is designed to aid the psychomatricians in developing the best test for students. What students will get will be much different from what the instructors saw.

Given that, it is not surprising that those allowed to audit the course should not take the test., They are neither instructors no will they be. But, such as the case in NC, I am obliged to ask this- would you rather have them take the course and at least know something about USPAP that they are charged to enforce- or is it better to let them continue on without knowing this?

What I like the most about teaching is what I learn from my students and from the activity itself.

Both the AQB AND asb are finally getting this right. Why slap them when they are actually making progress that was a long time in the offing?

Brad Ellis, IFA, RAA
 
<span style='color:darkblue'>Brad Ellis wrote the following:

"The course is designed for instructors to learn
just what needs to be emphasized. It does not
impute that passing it makes anyone smarter
than anyone else."

Failing such a test is an indication of an inability to learn (feel free call it whatever you please), or an indication the "USPAP Instructor" was not paying enough attention in class. Both are understandable; neither is acceptable -- not for those who are to instruct others. Maybe not politically correct, just the way it is. Like I have written before, I always thought it terribly unfair that no NFL teams will draft me, and allow me to play first string quarterback. After all, it's not my fault that I do not have near the size, a decent throwing arm, or the inclination to learn the plays (or really, to even understand all the rules of the game). I am sure you would agree with me that this is just not right. Life's tough.

On the other hand, maybe some who should have passed (and actually did pass), didn't; and some that did pass, actually didn't. Stranger things have happened. Of course, we shouldn't get carried away with needless concerns. I've sure heard some silly, outrageous things before. For instance, get this -- I once heard an absurd rumor that "the powers that be" once allowed commissioned loan officers to pick the appraiser! And similarly, I once heard that commissioned loan officers and some loan brokers are not all licensed! See what I mean?

"But, such as the case in NC, I am obliged to ask
this- would you rather have them take the course
and at least know something about USPAP that
they are charged to enforce- or is it better to let
them continue on without knowing this?"

It's better to get them the hell off the board. I believe this is happening in NC. Ossie Smith was reappointed to the NCAB, but our governor may not have had much choice in this case. The tobacco lobby is so strong here, that -- if you can believe this -- our share of the multimillion dollar national tobacco settlement -- promised and intended to be used for antismoking campaigns, and healthcare, etc. -- is being used to build a huge tobacco processing plant. No joke. Of course, we have a lot of farmers and their familles who depend on this crop, and we are in the middle of an enormous state budget shortfall. Things can get real complicated. But we're making progress: Our governor also appointed an honest, qualified man to the Board this year, replacing a weak link.

"Both the AQB AND asb are finally getting this right.
Why slap them when they are actually making progress
that was a long time in the offing?"

Who's slapping them. Brad should probably have read the thread a little more carefully.

I believe Bob is exactly right:

"In my opinion the REALLY important stuff is Ethics
and Competency and I am not sure that can be taught.
The only way to "teach" it is by swift and sure disciplinary
action against appraisers who are incompetent and unethical.
Until state boards recognize that sending a CROOK to a
USPAP class is a waste of time.....I will continue to be
skeptical of any real improvement in the appraisal business."

I would add the following:

A car that will not run due to unknown problems can often still be fixed. However, if there are two separate problems existing at the exact same time -- where either one on its own would prevent the car from running -- such as a short in the electrical system, and also a thrown rod in the engine, it may take ten times as long to diagnose and fix. One problem keeps the other from being diagnosed and fixed. Competence and ethics issues on state appraisal boards will be more "fixable" when simpler problems are taken care of first. Board members not being able to pass such a test is analogous to having a dry tank in addition to all else.

David C. Johnson</span>
 
David-

My responses:

Failing a test may or may not be due to an inability to learn. Note that no one will be teaching this course that has NOT passed the test. Are you saying that if someone was, say ailing, and failed the test that this same person could not be a great instructor when he retook the test and passed?

I heard that you DID apply for that NFL job, and when asked if you could pass a football, your reply was "PASS IT? I can't even swallow it!" (yes, David, that WAS a joke).

I will not argue with you that it is better to get a doofus off a state board. But, for me, if that does not happen- and it usually does not- I'd rather have them hear folks like Danny Wiley tell it like it is and make them at least THINK TWICE before they sanction someone over something they do not understand. With the exposure, at least you might get a fighting chance. And yes, I'm well aware of the uses that the tobacco settlement is being put to- not just in NC (where I grant you that the particular use is astounding) but in lots of states. it was all over the news last week.

Finally. who is slapping the AQB and ASB?- why, you, Vertin, Shields, and even Bob Ipock in this instance. When you make statements regarding why someone who audits the course MUST take the exam and insinuating that the AQB/ASB is somehow making some sort of serious error in that decision. Remember the intent of the exam- at least right now- it is to see how the exam questions themselves perform, as well as to certify the first groups of instructors.

Perhaps it is you who ought to re-read those posts.

Brad Ellis, IFA, RAA
 
Brad,

Just for the record, I am not slapping anyone, ASB, AQB or others.


My opinion is that this class should not be taken by anyone who will not be tested, especially when APPRAISER FEES from hardworking appraisers will be paying for them to take it as is the case with the NC board members and staff.

Board members, regulators, board staffs and investigators should be taking a seperate class geared toward their needs and learning objectives. They should be tested so all appraisers that they oversee will have confidnce that they have mastered the subject.

The class in question is set up for and has the objective of training people who will be INSTRUCTING. It seems to me that a similar course could be offed for those who will NOT be teaching.

In light of the SMALL NUMBER of appraisers who have taken and passed the course and are certified to teacch USPAP and the LARGE NUMBER of insructors that will be needed.....why fill those seats with people who will not be teaching? Set up another course for all of these "non-instructors"
nationwide.

I was denied CE CREDIT for the USPAP Instuctors Course by the NCAB. The rationale was that it "was not open to all appraisers". It was no big deal for me as I had far more hours form other courses than I needed.
However, it seems likes poor policy to not support and encourage taking (and passing) such a course and then turn around send a board and staff to take the same class and yet not plan on being tested at the end.

I don't like the idea of folks taking a TESTED COURSE and then not taking the test. No doubt, the fact that the some people did not take or pass the test, will be forgotten over time. That is like saying you studied law or accounting or whatever.....and failing to explain that you never took any exams.

There is no intent on my part to slap or slam anyone....I just don't agree with what is being done and have stated why.
 
Bob,

I fully agree that a course should be offered for the state board folks. I just do not know of anything specific that is available.

And as to the comments, perhaps you'll feel better if I use the word "criticize" instead of "slap"- in case someone takes offense to that one. I'm not married to that word.

I'm just a bit surprised. If it were true that these folks would be taking up some badly needed space- OK. But, I'll tell you that in all my years involved in appraisal education I can remember only 1 course (I coordinated but did not teach it) in which there was not enough room for a few more attendees. I'm guessing that is the case on these, but do not know, The one I attended had plenty of room for more.

Seems we are arguing over a small thing, but I'll happily agree to disagree.

Brad Ellis, IFA, RAA
 
I will firmly hold on to and exercise my right to criticize any and all public officials whrn my opinion differs from theirs.
 
I dont think they need to pass a test for auditing a class. The idea that they are aware of how USPAP is being interperted to the appraiser is valuable. Therefore they may be less apt to make their own interpertations of the document. However I personally would rather the board use more wisdom and common sense than to rely on USPAP to make decisions for them. In FL 3 members of the board are not appraisers they should have no idea what is in USPAP. Their contribution and views are from outside the profession. Again here we are looking for people with wisdom and good common sense and bound by USPAP.
 
oops I ment for the non appraiser board menber.
We are looking for people with wisdom and good common sense and NOT bound by USPAP.
 
Brad-
Donno that I was "slapping" the ASB or anyone else. But I believe in "knowing thine enemy" and USPAP is not a friend to the appraiser, but is the sword with which the government keeps appraisers from committing evil deeds. I have no quarrel with that philosophy, no more than I have a quarrel with the concept of property taxes. But the application of either the property tax or USPAP is capricious and punitive. USPAP is not only subject to 51 interpretations, in many instances it is contradictory. I adapted David Misner's verbage to add to my appraisals as goes
the Appraisal Standards Board of The Appraisal Foundation has not
promulgated specific details as to exactly what constitutes a "Complete" appraisal or a
"Summary" report, and therefore, the determination as to whether or not this, or any, report
complies with USPAP cannot be considered to be an objective fact. Compliance is rather a
subjective determination which is based upon the perception and interpretation by the client and
review appraiser as to what constitutes compliance. This report is our good faith effort to comply
with both the letter and intent of USPAP.


As for D. Johnsons remark, "Failing such a test is an indication of an inability to learn (feel free call it whatever you please), or an indication the "USPAP Instructor" was not paying enough attention" allow me one exception in that should someone carefully read USPAP and interpret it differently to the point that they can fail the test, I think I understand it.

I am sick of taking USPAP courses which never get out of Std 1 and 2 until 4pm of day 2 when Std 3,4 will be mentioned in passing. I am sick of year after year reading the same errors which the ASB could correct in 5 minutes should they desire. I am sick of mineral rights being lumped with franchises, trademarks, etc. when every text on the subject calls mineral rights "REAL PROPERTY." These are not light issues to some of us. As a geo-appraiser, the financial security of my oil field clients could be compromised by a clever lawyer arguing whether I prepared an appraisal under Std. 9 or Std. 1,2. I know one case where the entire extended testimony of a geologist was dismissed over the remark that the property mineral rights were worthless. i.e.-He was not an appraiser so he could not value the mineral rights as "worthless" or "valuable" in the eyes of the court.

Why shouldn't I be allowed to take the best and most intense USPAP course possible? Am I going to have to be an instructors "assistant" for a week or two just to qualify? If so, I will do it, whether I get credit for the course or not. I did not get credit for taking the best, most intense appraisal class I ever had, apparently upon the whim of the state board because the class, held in Texas, was not approved by the state. That alone proves to me that neither the state nor by extension, AQB, gives a dee a double emm about my real education or qualifications. They have about as much to do with "quality" as bullfighting has to do with the department of agriculture (as Earl Butz said.) The buzz word is compliance. They want compliance. That implies we appraisers must be compliant, submissive, docile, pliable. Big Brother will take care of us. So sleep well, the USPAP police are your friend. Trust me. I am always right and I never lie. Yeah, right.

ter
 
Lest we all get too wrapped up in who was denied entry to the USPAP Instructor Certification course, I'd like to clarify what the course is and what it isn't. Please note that these are my own opinions and I may very well be alone in holding them.

As far as I can tell, the USPAP Instructor's Certification course was developed by The Appraisal Foundation to present the underlying theories of the USPAP to those individuals who have experience in teaching the subject to others. The reasoning being that if instructors understand the underlying theories, they can structure their lessons accordingy and without going off in wild tangents, as has happened in the past. The Appraisal Foundation has a student manual and companion instructor's manual that is supposed to be used by instructors for all future USPAP instruction. The AFs intention is that an instructor who has taken and passed the certification course and is using the AF's manuals will not be able to deviate from the philosophies and intentions used to develop and maintain the USPAP. The course is intended to further the goals of more standardized instruction by instructors, and eventually, more standardized understanding anbd practice by the appraisal community at large.

The standardization of instruction is the primary purpose of the course. In my opinion (I could be wrong about this), one of the secondary purposes is to weed out those individuals who might have been teaching the course but cannot come to terms with The Appraisal Foundation's philosophies and intent. The manner of testing, which is based on multiple choice questions with more than one right answer but is counting as correct only the most complete answer, is apparently intended to weed out those individuals who are unable to reconcile the underlying theories with the examples provided. I've heard varying pass ratios for the course, but suffice it to say that The Appraisal Foundation anticipates a significant percentage of the participants will fail the test. That was certainly true in the case of the class I was in. I was very surprised to learn of a couple of individuals whom I know to be pretty smart and very experienced, but ended up failing the test. Provisions were made at the very beginning for retaking the test, before it had even been adminstered the first time. The 109 certified instructors on the list now do not represent the total number of people who have taken the course.


The USPAP Instructor's Certification Course is not intended to teach the practical applications of USPAP. In fact, the majority of the practice examples in the course are structured to help instructors differentiate between different theories, rather than learning practical applications. Every 7-hour USPAP update course I ever taught had far more practical applications in it than the 16-hour Instructor course. IMO, the average appraiser or state regulator taking the course will not have a better understanding of the practical USPAP applications, and in fact, might just find it frustrating for that omission. I think state regulators would be better equipped to enforce the USPAP if they took and understood a regular USPAP update course as taught by a good instructor.

As for state regulators not taking the test, I have conflicting opinions on that subject from a personal viewpoint. On the one hand, I think all of the state regulators and investigators should take some instruction and have to pass a test as a means of demonstrating a minimum level of understanding. Merely auditing the class does not guarantee any level of understanding, but it might infer some competency where none rightfully exists.

The instructor participants sitting in the course will have a lot of motivation to do the extra studying and to actively participate in the course because they have to pass the test. Those individuals who are merely auditing the course with no intention of taking and passing the test will not have as much motivation to understand the material. I don't like the idea that a state regulator who has been present at the course but perhaps not an active or concientious participant might claim a level of expertise that is completely unwarranted. Of course, since they haven't taken the test, they shouldn't be claiming the course anyway. I would advise any appraiser who gets jammed by a state regulator who claims USPAP expertise by virtue of taking the course should ask whether the regulator passed the test. No test, no demonstrated competence in the subject.

In an ideal world, The Appraisal Foundation would develop and instruct a separate state regulator's course (probably on a regional basis), for which the participants would be required to take a test and pass it in order to claim the course. This course would be different from the instructor's course in that it would be more oriented toward enforcement issues the state boards face in their laws and regulations on issues that are defined and addressed in the USPAP. This would also give the state boards yet another opportunity to interact directly with The Appraisal Foundation, as some states are claiming they don't currently have enough access. Obviously, there would be no need for the general public or USPAP instructors to take that course since it isn't oriented toward them. In lieu of a specialized regulator's course, state regulators should take a regular USPAP update (as taught by a certified instructor) and pass the same test as appraisers in order to claim some level of competence in the USPAP. And that test should be relatively straight forward, not honed so finely that the correct answer is the most complete of four right answers.

So I guess that what I'm trying to say is that unless someone already has some experience teaching the USPAP and other appraisal courses to their peers, they aren't missing much in not taking the Instructor's Certification Course. But tht's just my opinion.


George Hatch
 
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