OPEIU meets with Fannie Mae

[David C. Johnson]

<span style='color:darkblue'>Steven,

Re: Fannie & Freddie & AGA

What other organization could even dream of having and voicing such goals as significant as the AGA's with a straight face? This organization might can do it. The parent organization has sure done as much in the past.

The arbitrary deadline set may have gotten the meeting this month rather than next decade. I certainly do not hold the AGA leadership to such a time table prediction, but I do appreciate its being made.

Also:

Dying of thirst on the desert and someone appears with an ice-cold Pepsi for everyone, what do we say?

HEY!! What the hell is THIS!? No COKE CLASSIC!?

LOOK Buddy -- you get this straight -- if we're going to allow you and your organization to help us, and maybe even save our profession from near total irrelevance where we have not a chance otherwise, you're goina be doing it on our schedule -- Got it!?

Regarding the pulling of the funds, the threat may be more powerful than the action itself. Maintaining the threat may be a maintaining a superior negotiating position. Avoid launching the Nukes whenever possible is sometimes decent advice. Just ask Pakistan. If all else fails...

Maybe there are not many members at this time. Steven, maybe you are due some credit for that (I would imagine so). There's no doubt at all about you being a real smart guy, but still, this doesn't mean there shouldn't be many members, if there are not. Any announcement that there are few members might discourage more memberships to some degree. Some people will not make a decision unless hordes of others have done so first. You know that is how it can work. Maybe revealing the numbers would be counterproductive. That would not be very smart. It might be bad for appraisers, bad for the profession, and bad for the country.

Hell, the fact of the matter is that their work could probably be done without us. The membership fee is likely more a gesture of good will and showing of support. It shows the AGA is not just helping those who are adamant about not needing or accepting help. I think more appraisal members on the roster would make a better argument to the rest of the AFL-CIO about welding around their pension funds for appraisers.

The AFL-CIO is a huge fighting machine. Much influence and an awesome track record. Its absolutely sculpted our Country for decades. (No, Don, regardless about your "expensive American car," the net effect has been very positive for the health of the entire country.) But, there's not as many traditional fights available these days. They are a bit of a rebel without a cause, so to speak. We have a vital cause but are the world's premier weaklings. Looks like a pretty good match to me.

Anyone sexist (or stupid) enough to say thousands of Nurses don't have a clue what they're doing with the union? Well, then how about the MDs and the Pilots?

Maybe we're just entirely too good to be part of the union -- particularly when there's plenty of nice rooms left at the Hotel AI. First class prestigious rooms too.

Of course, no one has to give up their current organizations, and everyone's still free to join a half-dozen more; also Don and friends can keep writing letters. I will too.

I just don't see what the appraisal community has to loose. $175 or something like that? Maybe less than the fee for a drive-by. Get real.

Now that you mention it, as a commercial appraiser, I guess I may not have a whole lot to gain.

I'll join anyway.

Regards,

David C. Johnson, (pre) AGA</span>

 

[Fred]

David,

Not by way of criticizing you, but I am still catching the theme.

You write, “LOOK Buddy -- you get this straight -- if we're going to allow you and your organization to help us, and maybe even save our profession from near total irrelevance where we have not a chance otherwise, you're goina be doing it on our schedule -- Got it!?”
That is not an accurate paraphrase of what I posted. What I am saying is that since the goals are not plausible, any schedule would be impossible to achieve. But then, I was not the one who offered the schedule and I will not be the one collecting the dues while the Holy Grail promises never materialize. So far it’s four years and deminimis is not zero. You tell me David. What is a fair schedule before deciding someone is making promises that NO ONE can keep? It is more reasonable to question whether the AGA can even save itself, no less save the profession.

“Dying of thirst on the desert and someone appears with an ice-cold Pepsi for everyone, what do we say? HEY!! What the hell is THIS!? No COKE CLASSIC!?”
I won’t try to refute the point-of-view that a pact with the devil is preferable to death, but I would say that if that is your best argument, your opening salvo as it were…well, nuff said. I do wonder if it is an accurate perception that the streets are littered with dying appraisers clutching for a life-saving soda. As you say,
“as a commercial appraiser, I guess I may not have a whole lot to gain”
So that’s at least one with no need to take a Pepsi that may have strings attached. Maybe my writing is not clear. Keeping your Pepsi analogy, what I am trying to communicate is that the grail (glass) is empty; that there is only the false promise of soda for everyone.

David, since you have no problem parting with $175 per and nothing to gain, put me on the list too. I won’t make any false promises. And if you are ever dying in the desert, I will give you fresh apple-celery juice. It has the electrolyte minerals your body would needs and I will set the recipe to optimize the potassium-sodium ratio for maximum beneficial effect
Pepsi!? Yikes! I wonder if the soda will kill you faster than the desert.

 

[Jim McGrath]

David,
“Giving everything a good bit of thought, I'd sure rather have both Steven Santora and Don Clark on our side...”
What is so anti-appraiser in employing a little due diligence and skepticism to the idea that the AFL-CIO, dressed as Santa, is going to come down from the North Pole to stuff our stockings with appraisal assignments because they “care” about appraisers. There has been no shortage of threads on this forum critical of the AI and other organizations (many posted on behalf of the Union). So why can’t we clinically dissect the Union proposals without being on someone else’s “side?”

Just tell me how this will work David. That’s all I ask. Think things through. Let’s say the ploy works. Freddie/Fannie throw their AVM software in the garbage and start increasing orders. Is the Union NOT going to take no steps to see that this work is routed to union appraisers or find some other method of getting their cut? Just what we need, another AMC.

Please tell me why the union would continue to work on behalf of the 90-95% (?) of appraisers who do not belong? Because in all the world they could not find a more worthy object of their charity than appraisers? Since when did step one in due diligence cease being the question, “And what’s in this for you?”

Steve, you must be better than I thought, now you can determine people's motives. I always thought due diligence was doing reasonable research to discover the correct information.

You can be skeptical about the AFL-CIO, no problem with that. I'm skeptical about everything anymore, even your motives. But one fact is that there are cases where one union will support another entirely different union with as much support as they can give, even marching on each others picket lines. They feel supporting other unions will make them all stronger, they have a common goal of increasing their benefits. Nothing wrong with that, it is what we all are trying to do.

What I question about your posts, is that they are all filled with things like "ploy". In my dictionary ploy means "a tatic intended to embarrass or frustate an opponent" that sounds more like what you trying to do.

And suppose the union threatens to move their pension fund to another source, and if FNMA et al change their mind and have appraisers do all appraisals. What then would be wrong with the requests that union appraisers do the appraisals? The AGA could do that anyway, whether FNMA changes or not. It might end up, in fact, that 90 to 95 % of appraisers would join, in fact, I might even join myself, to show my support, and to get my share of those new appraisals.

One other point, in the past, all your rants about Bill Sentner were about his actions in your appraisal organization, but now your complaints are about the union. Which is it? Or is really just about Bill himself, and this is the only way you have to attack him?

Jim

 

[Stephen J. Vertin MAI]

Steve:

Although I have a degree in finance my minor was real estate investments, not commodities. I am not an expert in the area. However, it seems to me a number of brokerage firms would be drooling to get a $750 billion account. Furthermore, many may be willing to transfer all monies for free just for future commissions and percentages. I might be wrong but I know there would be no lack of competition for control of this type money; thereby, driving transfer cost, if any, to a minimum. I am not so sure this would be a hindrance on AFL-CIO's part.

I would like to get at the heart of this issue. Both of us have been on this forum for a while. We have argued this issue in the past. I can attest more than most you are attendment on this subject. I have come to believe someone as attendment has either a tremendous ax to grind or they have validity to their point. Of course there are always areas in between so I am sincerely wondering which is the case.

So I am going to paraphrase what I believe you are basically saying. If I am wrong please correct me. You are saying that this is only an elaborate scheme by the union to get money from members. That, they have no intentions of pulling out money from the Maes.

If this is a correct paraphrase, I have to ask, do you have any proof of this? What do you base this on? Again, I have to say, if what you are saying is true, it sure seems like an elaborate hoax on the union's part. Why would they do this just to impress a couple of appraisers?

Finally, I have grown to have a lot of respect for your opinion. That also goes for Don and Bob's opinions. Everyone of you are straight shooters. As a group you throw very little B.S. on the table. I may not agree with everything you say but it is always well written and thought out.

With that said, all of you know as well as I the Maes could dry up 80 to 90 percent of all appraisal work tomorrow, if they stopped ordering. All of you know AVM's have a tremendous competitive advantage. All of you know in the wrong hands AVM's can be seriously abused. Furthermore, we all know it would take about a minute before lenders started abusing AVM's if they became rule of law.

I do not care how much propaganda AI concurs with. AVM's are not good for the industry or adequate protection to the public. At least with human appraisers you have limited protection. I for one believe there are a lot of good appraisers who fish net a lot of problems. I know I do and I am sure you do also. So what is the alternative? AI is not going to do anything. They support these things. IMHO, NAR is the next best alternative to the ASA; however, I have not heard their stance on this issue. So what is the prognosis? Even if we, meaning every appraiser in the nation, wrote letters daily to congress, it appears the US government can not control these guys either.

http://www.usatoday.com/usatonline/2002052...21/4127071s.htm

I have to be a pragmatist about this. I think the AFL-CIO has the best solution I have heard on this issue. I also believe if carried through it will work. Time may prove you guys right. However, for everyone's sake I hope your wrong.


Steve Vertin

 

[BenLuby]

Steve Vertin,
I will say this. I was a card carrying member of two different unions before I got into appraising a couple of years ago, and, much like Mr. Santora, I despised the old boy network I thought I was dealing with, but, in their defense, I will say this much. When the unions set their mind to help out their 'Union Brothers and sisters", whether it be a union of 50,000 or 50, they can shove some serious weight around. They understand one fact quite well. If you want to talk about how much good three people can do to change the board in North Carolina, how much more can be done by an organization with the clout of the AFL-CIO backing it? Don't like the Union? Fine. But if you like seeing AVM's getting what they deserve, maybe this in-fighting needs to be postponed. Right now, we all need to be on the same page, not arguing dollars and dimes. Both organizations need to get together, forget their problems, and work together to help the community as a whole entity, rather than each bickering. As long as the AVM's can keep the elder and more eloquent appraisers bickering over things, they can get a further foot hold in the door. Want to stop it? Then work out your differences, and don't do any thing to promulgate arguments among yourselves. Let us try to do what is best for the appraising community, we'll get what is due if we do what is right. And, Mr. Santora, I am not a union member, when I quit, I didn't go slinking back. They have good parts and bad, and I tasted too much bad, but I saw their ability to work. If it benifits the community, then let us all support it. I may even join them. Man, I really am losing my mind.

 

[larryhaskell]

Perhaps like others, I'm trying to sort through all of these posts to try and decide if any organization is worth joining. Could some of you who are active in your organizations give some overview what your organization stands for and what it has done to actually help appraisers. At the present time I have an open mind and quite frankly don't care what organization(s) have the capability to preserve our profession. While I believe that some of the debate posted here is enlightening, it does at times seem revert to petty bickering which seems to be counterproductive. The one acronym I can't figure out is IMHO. I look forward to the posts if you aren't tired of this topic.

 

[Jim McGrath]

Perhaps like others, I'm trying to sort through all of these posts to try and decide if any organization is worth joining. Could some of you who are active in your organizations give some overview what your organization stands for and what it has done to actually help appraisers. At the present time I have an open mind and quite frankly don't care what organization(s) have the capability to preserve our profession. While I believe that some of the debate posted here is enlightening, it does at times seem revert to petty bickering which seems to be counterproductive. The one acronym I can't figure out is IMHO. I look forward to the posts if you aren't tired of this topic.

Larry, it is always difficult to determine who is posting legitimate information, and who is pushing their own agenda. That's why you need to look at their postings over a period of time, and of course, to be skeptical about everything. I don't believe many of the present appraisal organizations will ever do much for the individual appraiser, even if they could, which they can't, they don't have the clout. I have been appraising since long before FIRREA, and I can remember when all these appraisal organizations, (except the AI) were started. All of them from the IFA, MRA, AACA, offered me full status in their organization, with the only qualification being paying their fee. No test, no educational requirement, nada, just pay the fee, and your a member. Many of those who joined are now quoting their expertice, I don't see it.

As far as IMHO, it means in my humble opinion, which usually is not so humble. The more honest ones use IMNSHO, which means in my not so humble opinion. The acronyms come from the old days of BBSes, bulletin board services, that was pre-internet forums, but much similar.

Jim

 

[bradellis]

Jim,

You might be interested in knowing that the AI, before the merger was the American Institute of Real Estate Appraisers and when formed, also had NO requirements for designation. It was a part of NAR until the late 80's.

They all started the same way.

Brad Ellis, IFA, RAA

 

[Jim McGrath]

Jim,

You might be interested in knowing that the AI, before the merger was the American Institute of Real Estate Appraisers and when formed, also had NO requirements for designation. It was a part of NAR until the late 80's.

They all started the same way.

Brad Ellis, IFA, RAA

Brad, I can remember when the Appraisal Institute, and the Society were seperate entities, as was (and still is) the ASA. I also remember when the AI didn't require a college degree, that only came after they had as many members as they wanted.

All the extra appraisal groups only appeared in the years just before FIRREA, when any kind of designation was required to get any business from the bankers, and mortgage brokers. I even saw many appraisers with multiple designations, I guess they thought that gave them more credibility than someone with just one designation. That all changed with the S&L crisis, when the government decided to set the rules. Now, anyone with two weeks of schooling can start as a trainee often with no direct supervision.

Jim

 

[bradellis]

Jim,

From your post:

"All the extra appraisal groups only appeared in the years just before FIRREA, when any kind of designation was required to get any business from the bankers, and mortgage brokers."

NAIFA was founded in 1961. Is that what you are referring to as " in the years just before FIRREA"?

Pretty long stretch, wouldn't you say?

Brad Ellis, IFA, RAA