Opinion, Opinion, Who's Got An Opinion

[Mike Garrett RAA]

The solution is really quite simple...the ASB should produce a complete audio visual presentation of USPAP to be monitored by a certified instructor who then proctors the examination.

 

[George Hatch]

Doug,

I agree with the concept that appraisers engaged in these other activities should conduct themselves just as professionally as when engaged in those other activites. Call me crazy, but I liked the older version of the Conduct Section of the Ethics Provision wherein we were admonished to "not engage in conduct that is unlawful, unethical or improper." I really liked that word "improper" , and I never cared for the subsequent qualifiers they inserted to include supplemental standards and such. To me, "improper" is, well, "improper". What's so tough about that?

However, the rationale presented as the basis for the change in definition of "Bias", which will become effective next January, doesn't exactly hold as much weight with respect to the definitions (Binding Requirements, no departure allowed) of "Assignment" and "Valuation Services" as do the Definitions themselves. Now if the ASB is establishing a new binding definition - "Appraisal Practice Services" - , perhaps they should add that to the Definitions Section and remove the apparent contradictions they have going now with the other terms they're using.

For now, I don't think any state board is going to be able to act on a complaint against a biased instructor based on this paragraph. That said, I wouldn't want to generate such a complaint in the first place.

 

[Fred]

Mike,
I have an even easier solution. Just publish the standards in book form.

Posted by Doug

They could not be more clear in this paragraph that teaching is folded into the definition

Ditto that.
The definition of appraisal practice creates four areas of practice, but the 2003 definition of bias only addresses three of them. The 2004 definition will cover all four.

Posted by George

Are we really that worried about opinionated people in the appraisal business, or for that matter, in the education of appraisers business? 'Cause if we are, we're in big trouble.

Well, that just depends on what the meaning of opinionated is.

In appraisal literature, USPAP and AO's, I see reference only to opinions reached by first considering all relevant inforamtion. Some folks call that inductive reasoning. USPAP calls it "developing" an opinion. That type of reasoning is easily distinguished from opinions which are emotional reactions or some other form of convenience for which "supporting" data is a subsequent contrivance. That is, hitting the number by cherry picking the comps.

For an example of what I am talking about, look at AO-9. Notice how it first splays out the "relevant USPAP passages" like an array of comps, and then proceeds with its analysis-to-conclusion. I usually find it very easy to detect when someone is not working that way, when they are backfilling a story to fit a conclusions reached in advance. That type of "opinion" has a sound all its own, right down to the type of sentence structure it inevitably must create.

The veteran Wayne's World posters in this thread are surely all familiar with the circumstance of someone claiming that some act violates USPAP and me asking if they can cite the USPAP passage that led to that opinion. And I am quite accustomed to silence as an answer. Recently a USPAP instructor told me that AO's have a way of becoming Statements and Standards. I asked for examples and got the usual silence. I can't speak for Doug, but that is the kind of "opinion" I am referring to.

George, it's not like we're trying to play gotcha with the USPAP instructors. Those who follow the discussion will improve their product and get less grief from students. And before I sign off, here's a little food for thought. To pass the instructor's exam, one probably needs to "know" about 68% percent of the material "cold," because they will get another 8% by random chance (1/4 of 32%).

 

[Pam Wyant]

No doubt about it - USPAP Instructors do have a tough job. George, sounds like you would be a good, knowledgeable one, and we sure need a few more of those.

It's concerning to think that USPAP Instructor's will now have to follow USPAP standards in their classes (a form of appraisal practice now). Guess they'll need another standard to cover that. Wonder what the certification page will look like? :rofl:

 

[Fred]

Pam,
I know it is a silly notion that instructors actually comply with USPAP while teaching others to comply, but it's a world gone mad.

BTW, the instructors would not have to follow the “Standards,” as teaching USPAP is part of that fourth category of appraisal practice that does not fall under Standards (1-6) and so no certification page would be required.

 

[Austin]

Steven Santora wrote:

Recently a USPAP instructor told me that AO's have a way of becoming Statements and Standards. I asked for examples and got the usual silence. I can't speak for Doug, but that is the kind of "opinion" I am referring to.

Reply: How about this example Steven: Last Wednesday I took the 7-hour USPAP class from the former chairman of the state appraisal board. We were talking about the AO’s not being part of USPAP and a few minutes later he made this statement: “If you ever get called before the state board be sure to state that you have read the AO’s and did your best to interpret what they mean, how they applied in your case, and state that youmade a good faith effort to follow their guidance because when I was chairman of the state appraisal board saying that would get you a far more lenient penalty.”
My reply to that was: “You can’t do that or say that because if you do you are making the AO’s part of USPAP by incorporation or linkage and on appeal to a court of law if the court knew the board had done that they would throw you out of court.” What is the difference in saying that and saying, “Well I read my Bible every day,” and the board says "OK instead of six months suspension you only get three months?" I think this is a clear case of violating the principle of “Separation of State and USPAP.”

 

[Doug Smith SRA]

Originally posted by Mike Garrett@ RAA,Oct 2 2003, 06:04 PM
The solution is really quite simple...the ASB should produce a complete audio visual presentation of USPAP to be monitored by a certified instructor who then proctors the examination.

Mike:

It is Friday so we can loosen our ties.

I nominate Max Headroom as instructor along with suitable background music. Actually your comments bring up great teaching alternatives.

I, for one, have always advocated the Q & A book should be delivered as a deck of flash cards. Learn USPAP during TV commercial breaks or frighten other passengers by taking them on your next boring plane trip. Just the thing to read and flip over to see if you got the right answers.

We spend a minimum of 25% of our time driving around. What better use of our time than to listen to USPAP on CD instead of some new John Grissom novel (BTW-the new one "Bleachers" stinks. William Faulkner, he is not...) I always thought someone who went to jail would be a good narrator, Charles Keating comes to mind.

Of course USPAP could be learned in Monty Python skits. Picture someone bringing in an AO back to to the store only to find out it had been "retired" with John Cleese insisting it was still "alive." Happens every day.

Of course in this day and age, an animated movie would do. Shreck on the pursuit of the USPAP Princess or better yet Finding that little ethical fish, what is name, Elmo. USPAP by the Muppets would be passe, no one watches the Muppets anymore. Everyone learns to count some other way. Those who did learn to count with the Muppets are all hanging out at the "Commercial Forum."

A catchy name and "new" teaching format for the book might help with graduated steps. "Hooked on USPAP." would be just the thing in a series of booklets, with graduated improvements. Forumites could brag they were at a certain level instead of bragging they did not pass the Instructor Exam.

There is the USPAP board game. You are dealt a Fraud card and from the State Board deck, you pick "15 hours of CE." Then you are dealt "Got street name wrong" and from the State Board Deck, you pick up the dreaded "Lose Your License Card...."This teaching tool teaches the differences between fraud and errors something State Boards need to learn....

I hear tales of new appraiser classes where students come in with spiked hair, body piecing and the like. USPAP in rap format would fit. I can't keep those rap guys straight so I won't suggest anyone but learning USPAP among a lot of foul language sure would fit some people's style. After all, I curse about USPAP or what somebody says about USPAP under my breath all the time.... :rofl:

Thanks Mike. It is Friday. I am moving to a new city today. I have John Lennon on tape, Singing "Imagine." I need to mellow out so next comes George Winston "Autumn. Next time I write, you will know I hooked up the computers ok and at least I can tune in to the Forum. I will try to figure out how to change my signature to "Western Montana." My new address is Missoula MT, the land of milk, honey and granola. Radio towers block Rush Limbaugh from the airways. I will need your encouragement.

 

[Mike Garrett RAA]

Board game is an excellent idea...now how do we make it interactive in power point?

 

[George Hatch]

In reference to my comment on the as-yet-undefined "Appraisal Practice Services" and its applicability to the ethical responsibility of Instructors, it is not my intention to contradict the ASB or oppose a legitimate application of the USPAP. But it seems to me that if we're talking about wayward instructors being held professionally accountable for thier actions, we should use the right set of standards. A set of standards where such conduct is not specificaly addressed, even if we're talking about the USPAP, should not be used as the measure of performance. It's like trying to judge a traffic violation using civil law wherein traffic offenses are not addressed; when it may be more appropriate to use a state's Vehicle Code, wherein the offense is specifically addressed.

In the case of the wayward and possibly unethical USPAP Instructor, the AQB does have a policy that the instructors agree to abide by that addresses this:

AQB Certified USPAP Instructors shall conduct themselves in the classroom with generally accepted professional conduct expected of an educator. ...

This is the standard of conduct that the USPAP Instructors are (currently) specifically held accountable to, and I think that in the event there is a complaint, this standard is the measure whereby the Instructor should be measured and, if necessary, sanctioned.

 

[Thomas N. Morgan]

Steven,

I was struck by your insightful comment about a report that "has a sound of own, right down to the sentence structure it must create."

You are correct. Maybe you and I are not talking about the same thing, but I think we are. I can tell a fraudulent report just by the language and writing style....way before I even check the first fact in the report.

The guys who prepare those reports must go to some special school, or something. Somehow, they learn how to say things that sound good, but are not definitive.

You are right. There's a definite linguistic style to them.

Regards,

Tom