Property tax consulting

[Carnivore]

Mentor,

Dont you think the whole process in court would be exactly the same no matter who did what? The courts very nature is one of an adversarial climate. What I know and read of many types of cases is they tend to settle out of court because of unpredictable juries.

In residential(most places) there would be so little money involved that it is highly unlikley to go to court. Lets be realistic about it. I made that point earlier and it was promptly poo poo'd by Kali accusing me indirectly as not likley to complete a credible appraisal or consulting assignment. Pretty cheap shot from a person who does not even know me.

 

[JSmith43]

Pretty cheap shot from a person who does not even know me.

I think he just was expressing a strong opinion. But, I'm not going back to analyze it

Carnie, in the '80's I did divorce appraisals in contested situations and the closest I got to court testimony was being suited up & on deck. I was handed the report of the opposing side & in about 2 minutes gave the attorney that retained me, a list of show stoppers. It would have taken longer if USPAP were in effect back then

Quick conference with judge. Settled. Oppositions report was fatally flawed, in a way that was easily communicated.

I take Kali at his word regarding court experience. I only have logged 4 hours testimony & that was a long time ago. But, I do remember a pit bull counsel trying for 2 hours to challenge my standing as an expert witness. The judge finally stopped him and said to move on, that he was not going to be successful. It was like dealing with 2 hours of UW stips originating in India

Yes, I cracked up the jury a few times. Probably not a good strategy. couldn't help myself then. I'm better now....I think

 

[Carnivore]

I probably deserved it considering that I made fun of his handle by not remembering it completely.

I do respect his opinion. He just reminded me of my mother when I was a kid and she said we could not do something. When ask why , my mother always responded with "because I said so"

I am lucky, I have several friends who are trial lawyers and they are a great help. Plus three legal clients who do what they can with my small brain.

 

[JSmith43]

I do respect his opinion. He just reminded me of my mother when I was a kid and she said we could not do something. When ask why , my mother always responded with "because I said so"

You'd make a good Libertarian

 

[Vernon Martin]

California property tax reduction

Regarding the original post, licensed and certified appraisers in California face a similar problem, as advocacy is a USPAP violation.

I do some property tax appeal work on commercial properties, but I face competition from unlicensed appraisers who guarantee results or no fee is paid. I know of at least one appraiser who gave up his certification to pursue this lucrative kind of work. Because of declining values here, doing property tax appeals is like shooting fish in a barrel. This type of work can only last a few years, though.

When discussing my services with prospective clients, I am asked why they should choose me when there are other appraisers who can guarantee results. This is how I respond:

1. My general certification legally prevents me from guaranteeing the results of an appraisal assignment.

2. They are usually comparing my services with the services of unlicensed appraisers from a different county.

3. How credible will the Assessor find an appraisal by an unlicensed appraiser from a different county who is paid to appraise the property as low as possible?

4. I won't take on a property tax appeal unless I think the property is overassessed. (Am I crossing the line here?)

It works only part of the time, but this type of work is not as lucrative as other areas of my practice, so I don't chase it.

Also, because most of my tax appeal work is in Los Angeles County, the most populous county in the nation, the waiting times for property tax appeals are quite long. It's taking the LA County Assessor six months to process "decline-in-value" reassessment applications, and getting a case heard before an Appeals Board takes about two years. For those who do tax appeals on a contingent fee basis, they may have to wait a long time to get paid, if they get paid. I like to be paid in advance when handling a new client.

 

[Kali the Boston Terrier]

...by Kali accusing me indirectly as not likley to complete a credible appraisal or consulting assignment. Pretty cheap shot from a person who does not even know me.

I'm sorry if I made you upset, it was not my intention nor was I making a statement directly at you...had I made a direct statement I would have Said "...Carnivore".

I'm not known for passive aggressive indirect statements...I am known for aggressive direct statements however.

 

[Wolverinefan]

Let me get this right Kali? Your saying that as an appraiser, we should not do tax appeal work as we would automatically be an advocate? I guess I dont see the difference in acting impartial doing a typical report for a purchase or refi versus doing one for a H/O for tax appeal? Your acting impartial and as a non advocate in either case? Correct?

Why would you contract it out?

How do you make any money off that (contracting it out)?

 

[Carnivore]

Kali,

You did not upset me. Although I admit that I am not fond of someone just saying you can not do something as opposed to maybe explaining by quoting USPAP along with AO's, FAQ's, etc . Which you never actually did.

Tim is correct you must advocate for your appraisal. To advocate for your appraisal means to me you must have complied with USPAP in the development and reporting of the appraisal. I can say I always do that.

When you look at Mecklenburg County, NC tax re-eval forms you realize there are only two ways to appeal. Either singularly or collectively by a faulty comparison(including factual errors) or inequitable taxation(including factual errors).

My experience has been with the Tax Assessor is that the comparisons are usually faulty as a result of factual errors in subjects physical data.

Occasionally I see a obvious mistype in the depreciation factor. For example a two year old house is not going to have 15% depreciation or a 60 year old house with no obvious exterior updates is going to have a 5% depreciation rate. Its pretty obvious the guy with the relatively new house does not want to appeal. The guy with the 60 year old house on the other hand is a potentially successful appeal.

The last area is usually in the site area value. Pretty easy to spot those also, but not always.

I dont see why we can not do this in USPAP, and I see little threat of lawsuit. As we all know in court they can make you look wrong or bad even though your not.

My experience so far in legal arena has been a deposition that I survived, several no contest, a settlement and one where the other side ran away and filed BK to hide behind and another where regulators took them over. One assignment I did priliminary work on people ended up going to jail.

So I am not faint of heart and I am up to taking on some high risk with high reward fees. I did turn down an estate(guessing the value at 8 million) assignment by quoting $7,500 and thirty day turn time. They got someone else. I have done retrospective assignment that have gone back as far as 30years(that went to settlement because the other side did not get an appraisal).

I lost three credit Union clients to AMC's. RE Agents in NC are illegally making up BPO's for pre-foreclosure, loan workouts, refinancing, short sales and other illegal services(you name it), so that business is gone.

Skippy is using runners, trainees(when its not permitted), MLS photos, faking site inspections. He is cutting every corner possible.

Risk, yes I understand the risk. If ethical appraisers dont get on the ball and fight back they run the risk of going out of business.

 

[Doug in NC]

Anyone know of a good source for tax data on disk? A builder showed me this info once, but when I tried to order the info a year or so ago I could not find it. Seems that provider stopped offering the product. I can find the same data, but I have to go to a few different places to get it all - and it's online, as opposed to readily available all at once and quickly on your own computer (internet connections can be slow and government sites difficult to load often times).

 

[Kali the Boston Terrier]

Let me get this right Kali? Your saying that as an appraiser, we should not do tax appeal work as we would automatically be an advocate? I guess I dont see the difference in acting impartial doing a typical report for a purchase or refi versus doing one for a H/O for tax appeal? Your acting impartial and as a non advocate in either case? Correct?

Why would you contract it out?

How do you make any money off that (contracting it out)?

Quite the contrary, I see you have not read the whole thread...tax appeal work is fine provided it is purely an appraisal or purely an advocate. Checking errors on property cards, depreciation factors, GLA...is fine in the context of doing an appraisal. Testifying to your appraisal in tax court is fine. Where appraisers run into issues, is when they find errors in the property card, or depreciation factors...then later do an appraisal.

The beginning work of just checking for errors, pulling sales...etc is often looked at as advocacy work...to later do an appraisal report, would seem a conflict of interest. A fun question that tax attorneys like to say or assessors when later arguing about the appraisal...

"...so Kali the client initially contacted you about helping them with a tax appeal...yes that is correct...what did you do for them...well initially I observed the property and got a copy of the property card...were you doing an appraisal...no I was checking the card for factual errors in GLA, depreciation site size, site valuation...oh so you started looking for problems in the property card...no, just checking the facts...well it would seem that really they asked to look for problems, did they ask you to look at the assessed value too....yes, but that was a different assignment....really, was this when you were looking for factual errors or after...after...how soon after...immediately following the property card assignment...so let me get this straight you were looking for problems before when they hired you, you completed that assignment looking for problems then became unbiased when looking for sales...yes...wouldn't it seem odd that you initially were advocating for them in finding errors to reduce their property taxes, then you became an unbiased observer of the market, don't you stand to make more money in this business dealing if you write an appraisal too...yes...so you have incentive to maybe pick lower sales to make sure you get the assignment...no I am bound by USPAP that does not allow me...were you bound by USPAP when they initially hired you...no...were you not an appraiser then too...well yes...why not...because I was not doing....and on and on it goes

Carni USPAP is the minimum standard you perform work under, not the highest standard...I have not gotten to where I am doing the minimum. Stating that USPAP is the only threshold one should meet is counterproductive to our profession. Your clients success is going to be based on your relationships with assessors, ALJs, judges, attorneys. Your relationships with these people will be based on your reputation...which will be based on how you are perceived by people as being an advocate or unbiased. Its cold comfort to know you are right via USPAP...especially given appraisers are the only ones who read it. I'm sure your client will sleep better at night paying more in taxes, because you are right via USPAP.