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REO's as comparables to non-REO

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I have already for a number of short sales.
When verifying short sales with REAgents I have heard of the owner having to take on a personal loan and such on more than one occasion. In other cases the lender was selling at a loss due to hardship on the owner's part. The Definition does not limit special financing to the purchaser as far as I can tell, but rather seems to indicate it on the part of anyone involved.

I disagree with this logic, if I understand it correctly.
I own a home and it is underwater. I try to sell it and the best price I can get is $200k. I owe $250k. The lowest the bank will go is $210k to release the lien.
In order to get out from under my debt, I need to pay the bank $10k to in addition to the proceeds from the sell.

There are actually two transactions happening here: The seller's transaction to buy out the debt with his lender, and the home buyer's transaction to buy the home.

The deal I need to make (as the seller/homeowner) to buy-out my debt is not necessarily dependent on the sale price of my house. In fact, in the case I think you describe and I use as an example, it is not dependent- as the minimum the lien holder will take is $210k, which is more than what the house will sell for in the market.
The fact that I (as the owner) have to pay an additional $10k is immaterial (in this case) to the sale price and to the home's value based on the market reaction by the participants.

If the bank took over the house and listed it for $210k and never sold it because no one would pay more than $200k, by extending the logic (as I understand the argument), the market value is $210k.

What I do understand in the transaction that you describe is this: The seller sold the house at a loss; that he had to finance his loss does not constitute a financing concession for the buyer or for the transaction. :)

Now, if the buyer paid the $10k to the lien holder, it is an expenditure made immediately after (in this case, probably concurrent) with the transaction, and it would be part of the transaction value (and would be an upward adjustment to the property if it were to be used as a comparable). The actual price paid for the home by the buyer was the $200k + $10k to the lien holder, for a transaction value of $210k.

We probably will continue to disagree on this, which is fine.
 
In some instances short sellers take on a personal unsecured debt as part of a deal with the 2nd lien holder. Part of a seller calculation is their financial situation. If the debt is forgiven, they get a 1099 & it becomes taxable income in the year of closing.

This is a big financial hit unless the seller is technically insolvent & proves it to the IRS. If the seller has a big, fat 401K or other assets, another solution is to offer the 2nd mortgage entity a personal note for the deficiency in order to avoid a 1099. The note may have favorable terms, there may be no effective way to enforce payment of the note.

The point is, one never knows. Short sales are much less reliable proxies for traditional sales than REO, IMO.
 
Special financing, as it has always been applied ( to best of my knowledge) in res appraising is seen as financing concessions/favorable terms extended by indvidiuals the transaction, THAT HAS AN IMPACT ON PRICE, RE THE SALES PRICE WAS INFLATED DUE TO FINANCING EXTENDED TO THE BUYER THAT WAS MORE FAVORABLE THAN THE BUYER COULD GET ON THE OPEN MARKET.

For example, take owner financing. IF an owner extends a private mortgage, and the rate is 7%, and the prevailing rate at banks is 7%, then it is not "special" financing, because the terms are equivalent to what the buyer could find elswhere. But, if an owner offers financing at 2%, and that results in the house selling for 20k higher than similar houses, it is "special fincancing", because the rate is more favorabe than the buyer could get on the open markt, and the FAVORABLE FINANINC HAS A MEASURABLE IMPACT ON PRICE. Re, the owner offered favorable below market interest in exchange for a higher price.

An REO, is very straight forward. The lender is the seller, the buyer goes out on the open market and finds a mortgage or pays cash. No special or creative financing.

With a short sale, I still maintain no special financing is involved. The lender seller agrees to take less than the MORTGAGE amount from the owner, NOT LESS THAN MARKET VALUE from buyers . To prove that they are not selling "under market", the home is REQUIRED BY THE LENDER TO BE LISTED ON MLS FOR 90 DAYS BEFORE A LENDER AGREES TO ANY SHORT SALE OFFERS.

If an owner agrees with bank to bring 10k to the closing, I don't see how that is special financing. The buyer still has to go out and get financing at prevailing rates or pay cash. If, for example, a private owner is behind 20 k on maintenance fees or taxes or a lien on the house, that amount is due at closing, either in cash or deducted from proceeds. Cash due at closing from an owner to satisfy liens or taxes or a mortgage workout in a short sale, I don't see that translates to special financing for a buyer.
 
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An REO, is very straight forward. The lender is the seller, the buyer goes out on the open market and finds a mortgage or pays cash. No special or creative financing.

Except for when the REO entity does in fact offer special financing compared to what is generally available by 3rd party institutions. VA Vendee financing of their REO, Homestep (Freddie), Homepath Fannie) are offered on some REO. There are other programs with deep financial inducements.

REO sales are not a slam dunk to analyze. If all the facts are discovered, some would likely require adjustments for financing concessions since they sold for more than they otherwise would have with financing terms generally available.
 
What does an owner (did you mean buyer?) taking on a personal loan have to do with special financing?

Condition 5 in Definition of Market Value "(5) the price represents ...unaffected by special or creative financing ... by anyone associated with the sale."

If the seller (owner) and the seller (lender) have to come to an agreement as to financing the difference between the offer and the remainder of the loan OR the lender has to determine that the borrower meets one or more of the qualifications for "hardship" such that the borrower can be excused from the remainder of the debt (and those hardship definitions and such, IIRC, come from the federal government) then how does that NOT meet the definition of "special or creative financing" on the part of the owner/seller and lender/seller? For that matter, how would it make the "seller" typically motivated when the seller is both the owner and the bank?


The lender selling at a loss due to hardship on owner's part is the definition of a short sale, the lender is willing to take less than the mtge amount to sell the house (because the owner can't pay mortgage), in every case I have heard of, the lender only agrees to take less than the mtge amount AFTER THE PROPERTY HAS BEEN LISTED FOR 90 DAYS NOT AS A SHORT SALE. THEN THE LENDER MAY AGREE TO TAKE LESS THAN THE MORTGAGE AMOUNT.

Actually, it means the SALE is for less than the mortgage amount and that the rest MAY be written off due to hardship. Some lenders will either try to or succeed in getting the owner/seller to take out a personal loan for the balance.

The above sentence relates to seller movitivation, not special financing . ( Examples of special financing would include, owner private mortgages, seller financing to a buyer at interest rate way below prevaling rates, seller paying closing costs or offering cash back at closng

Actually, that is covered in the phrase "or seller concessions" in the definition of market value.

If it is a builder, they may have their own inhouse lender, but then the lender is assocaited with the sale through their affiliation with the builder, (often owned by the same company) .

Builder sales are, in my mind, are often another example of "special or creative financing" and a seller that is not "typically motivated" as the builder is not necessarily selling at market value but rather at cost to build plus profit. Therefore I always figure that a builder sale should either not be used, or at least fully analyzed and properly adjusted for when using it, to determine (fair) market value.
 
If an owner agrees with bank to bring 10k to the closing, I don't see how that is special financing.
I don't see it that way either.

It is a good example, however, that a short sale has many more variables related to seller motivation than do REO sales & certainly traditional sales, on average. Simply put, it is shakier data.
 
I disagree with this logic, if I understand it correctly.
I own a home and it is underwater. I try to sell it and the best price I can get is $200k. I owe $250k. The lowest the bank will go is $210k to release the lien.
In order to get out from under my debt, I need to pay the bank $10k to in addition to the proceeds from the sell.

OR the buyer may have to, and the reason the lowest the bank will go is $210 may be in question as to their motivations in being party to the sale.

Therefore seller motivation is often not "typical" and is much more difficult to get definitite information or an exact reading on, therefore, what Mentor said below ...

The point is, one never knows. Short sales are much less reliable proxies for traditional sales than REO, IMO.



We probably will continue to disagree on this, which is fine.

Yep, I am fine with continuing to disagree on that point too ... making others aware of and thinking about the full definition (and thus all the reasons why builder sales, REOs, short sales, estate sales, RELOs, and so forth may or may not meet the Definition of Market Value hard-coded on the FNMA form 1004 or such) is sufficient for me as well. :beer:
 
(and thus all the reasons why builder sales, REOs, short sales, estate sales, RELOs, and so forth may or may not meet the Definition of Market Value hard-coded on the FNMA form 1004 or such) is sufficient for me as well. :beer:

Nowhere does FNMA, USPAP, etc state that REO's, short sales, builder sales, OR private owner /tradtional sale comps, for that matter, have to meet the definition of "market value". ( comps to those that are "market value" is not "coded" into FNMAE forms . )????


"Market value" is the SOW for finding the most probable price for the SUBJECT.

An appraiser, when they start an assignment, does not know what the market value is. That is what they are hired to do. Since an appraiser can't know what "mraket value" for the subject is till they've finished the appraisal, how, can they pick comps based on "market value?"

Comps are supposed to chosen according to other guidelines than looking for "market value." The, guidelines to choosing comps both from Fannie, USPAP etc include physical characteristics, arms length transactions , most competive and recent to subject. (meeting the standard of the principal of substitution being the goal of choosing appropriate comps)
 
Nowhere does FNMA, USPAP, etc state that REO's, short sales, builder sales, OR private owner /tradtional sale comps, for that matter, have to meet the definition of "market value". ( comps to those that are "market value" is not "coded" into FNMAE forms . )????

If something does not meet the definition of (fair) market value, aka does not meet the definition you are appraising to, then what steps do you need to take before using it in the report?

Can you use it without comment, adjustment or analysis or not?

Answer those two questions directly and simply, then look specifically how REO, estate sales, short sales, builder sales, and so on may or may not trip over each and every condition listed in the Defintion of Market Value on the FNMA form 1004.

There is your answer as to FNMA, as well as all the wording you have quoted from guidelines and so forth. If you don't want to believe what I am saying (aka, that REOs & short sales need to be analyzed and adjusted for or at least commented on when used) then don't come crying to me if your state board revokes your license in the future for using REOs without comment, etc.

As for USPAP 2010 go to this page and look up the definition of Market Value for yourself, and please note that it is NOT the definition of market value used on the FNMA forms, but note the bolded line just before the definition of Mass Appraisal which states "Appraisers are cautioned to identify the exact definition of market value, and its authority, applicable in each appraisal completed for the purpose of market value."

So, now you have been CAUTIONED, in USPAP, about identifying the exact definition of Market Value you are using in its report, and its authority.


"Market value" is the SOW for finding the most probable price for the SUBJECT.

An appraiser, when they start an assignment, does not know what the market value is. That is what they are hired to do. Since an appraiser can't know what "mraket value" for the subject is till they've finished the appraisal, how, can they pick comps based on "market value?"

They have the Definition of Market Value. What's the problem?

Comps are supposed to chosen according to other guidelines than looking for "market value." The, guidelines to choosing comps both from Fannie, USPAP etc include physical characteristics, arms length transactions , most competive and recent to subject. (meeting the standard of the principal of substitution being the goal of choosing appropriate comps)

Not "chosing" comps based on the adjustment, but rather properly analyzing and adjusting the comps that don't meet the definition such that they become reasonable proxies for determining (fair) market value as defined. If you don't adjust then you probably should comment as to why you didn't. In other words you should explain how you used comps that don't meet the definition of Market Value as proxies to determine Market Value.
That is what ResGuy & I have been saying AFAICT.

In regards to the Definition of Market Value in the SOW, by using a FNMA form the applicable definition is supplied in the form and FNMA is the authority. Altering the definition to suite your needs thus could potentially be looked at as a USPAP violation! Proceed at your own risk.
 
If something does not meet the definition of (fair) market value, aka does not meet the definition you are appraising to, then what steps do you need to take before using it in the report?

It is not the case os "something" meeting the definition of market value or fair market value ( not sure why fair market value is being said?) In any case, re for comps, perhaps what you meant to say, is they do not meet the standard of arms length transactions, so I won't use them, or I will adjust for a conditions of sale in the comps.

You keep saying an appraiser has to use comps that meet the definition of market value, and for a while I even went along with it as its sounds correct.

But (as a few others as well have reminded me) WE ARE SUPPOSED TO FIND MARKET VALUE FOR THE SUBJECT (per it'd definiition, an arms length transaction, not subjec to undue stimulus, not subject to special financing etc, the defintion applies to the SOW for the subject)

The definiiont of MV is a condition for the subject, not a criteria by which to select, or reject comps.

Re, our duty is to estabish an opinon of value of the most probable price on the effective date of the appraisal for the subject, as if the subject were for sale on effective date, (with the sale of subject subject to the terms/definition of market value )

Re, once we establish the terms of sale as defined by definition of market value for the subject, then we choose our comps, per the guidelines for choosing comps. At that point, the appraiser might exclude some comps for not meeting the standard of being arms length transactions, or not being similar enough to the subject in physical characertistics, for example.

When the appraiser has their three comps, THEN, if terms of sale of a comp differs from the theoretical market value terms of sale of subject, then the appraiser can make adjustments. For example, sale one had special financing, seller paid closing costs of $5000. The subject, under the SOW of market value, is not assumed to have special financing.

Re, appraiser finds a good comp, same sf and condition that sold a month ago, but on research finds it had some seller paid closing costs of $5000. This might meet the defintion of special financing. The appraiser is not supposed to reject the comp because since it has special financing, it does not meet the defintion of market value! The appraiser is supposed to consider the comp, and if they want to use it, then adjust the special financing, the 5 k in seller paid costs, up to the theoretical MV sale condition of subject, which does specifiy not subject to special financing.

In this way, the appraiser then can adjust the closing costs of $5000 for the comp to the subject, the subject MV terms assuming no special financing.

For example, suppose an appraiser, on the very same day, is asked to appraise three neighboring homes ( for this purpose, assume same size and condition). 7 Cherry Lane, 9 Cherry Lane, and 10 Cherry Lane. The appraiser goes on the same day and inspects one after the other.

RE, 7 Cherry Lane is owned by a lender as an REO asset. Cherry Lane is owned by a private party. Both owners are in fact under undue stimulus, 7 Cherry Lane because the bank needs to sell, 9 Cherry Lane because owner is behind on mortage and about to lose the house. 7 Cherry Lane, nobody is there on inspection date but appraiser knows it is an REO owned house. 9 Cherry Lane, the nervous owner follows appraiser around talking about how he has to sell or else he is out on the street.


10 Cherry Lane, the owner doesn't care if they ever sell it, and tells appraiser that if she doest' get an inflated high price, she will never sell it. She might not represent atyical owner motivation. BUT IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT ANY OF THESE THREE SELLERS WANT OR WHAT PRESSURE THEY ARE UNDER.

Because the SOW "erases," for assignment purposes, any individual owner motivation, and imposes the same assignment conditton for all three homes, find most the probable price, the probable price developed per a definition of market value that applies to theoretical terms of sale FOR THE SBUJECT..

Thus, the appraiser approaches each assignment with same SOW, and the comps might even be the same in this example on all three reports ( only difference is the addition of listings on the REO addendum for 7 Cherry Lane).

Because, whether the owner is a bank or a guy losing his house under dureess or a spoiled owner thinking her house is worth double of everyone elses', the appraiser is appraising according to teh SOW, not the individual or lender's particular reasons for selling.

We have to keep in mind that the SOW, find the most probable price according to definition of market value, refers to the SUBJECT, the house or condo being appraised.

Next, the guidelines for comps are similar physical characterisitcs, market area, arms length transactions etc.

If you want to say, I don't want to use this REO or estate sale or builder sale because in my opinion it does not meet the defintion of arms length transaction, for example, that would be correct, but to say you do not want to use an REO or estate sale or builder sale because it does not represent market value, or fair market value would be contrary to the puropose of the apprasial ( which is to find market value for the subject, not to pick comps according to what the appraiser believes are market value sales, even if the sales meet the criteria of market value, that is not why they are supposed to be selected, or eliminated)

The terms can be confusing for sure though!
 
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