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TAF and USPAP - great analysis

I've been appraising difficult properties - non-stop - since long before you ever took your first Appraisal 101 course. I've revised plenty of erroneous public records info on various property types, so you're zooming yourself if you think the Bay area is somehow unique in that regard. I've physically measured certain comparables for their dimensions and have used the overhead mapping to do it. Just yesterday I measured the difference between gross lot area and net usable on an SFR lot by using the County overheads.

Aside from comparing what I do every day against what you do (and don't do) everyday, I would ask you to consider this: When even the principals in some of these transactions are sometimes operating with less-than-reliable information how does any appraiser presume to be more well informed than they are about their own property? And what effect on the resulting outcomes? Because I can guarantee you that I now know more about the usable lot area and the elevations on the topo map than does that property owner or any broker that ever saw that property. Exteriors is something we can look at without gaining access to the property. Not so with a lot of other attributes.

Not to mention the point that data quality across the rest of the nation varies greatly. Regardless of who is doing the analysis or how they do it they will still need to clean some of that data up prior to using it. You wouldn't be making the efforts you say you're making with data qualification process you use if you disagreed with the importance of data qualification.

I'm sorry, I just don't believe you can do this without a good deal of subjective judgement, i.e. you cannot prove you objectively came to such and such a value conclusion. I am in a much better position than you. But, you can't be blamed for using a technology that is taught by the Appraisal Insitute and every other appraisal organization and used by 99% of appraiesrs. It is all you know. And so it is what it is.

I am in a different world - a higher level of appraisal - a new and more sophisticated standard. .... And there is indeed a need for it - but since I have to compete with the lower standard which can be done at a much lower price - I am economically at a great disadvantage when I view my method as means to support my livelihood.
 
I'm sorry, I just don't believe you can do this without a good deal of subjective judgement, i.e. you cannot prove you objectively came to such and such a value conclusion. I am in a much better position than you. But, you can't be blamed for using a technology that is taught by the Appraisal Insitute and every other appraisal organization and used by 99% of appraiesrs. It is all you know. And so it is what it is.

I am in a different world - a higher level of appraisal - a new and more sophisticated standard. .... And there is indeed a need for it - but since I have to compete with the lower standard which can be done at a much lower price - I am economically at a great disadvantage when I view my method as means to support my livelihood.
Sir, for one. Appraisal institute could care less about you.

Two, if you really think are geo competent in Memphis jurisdiction? You need a class.

Three,, I think I read you. Your probably have people skills of a very introverted person.

Four, you make some good points but you don't know many things.
 
I can get many jurisdictions where you don't have a clue RCA.
 
I am in a different world - a higher level of appraisal - a new and more sophisticated standard. ....

I salute you for being special.

I don't begrudge you your opinion of yourself or what additional methods and techniques you use in your work - if you're still doing any appraisal work. USPAP doesn't add any restrictions to how much extra you put into your work. There is no upper limit to what else you can do. If you are having problems selling your methodology to the users of appraisals then those problems have nothing to do with the minimums in USPAP. Render unto your clients and users that discretion which is theirs'.

My point is that if the discussion is about where the minimum standards should be reset for appraisal practice those standards have to be set at a point where they will always apply. Not just under a limited set of circumstances.

This is the reason USPAP doesn't include any instruction or technical specs on any particular approach to value or mode of analysis. How could it? There is no "the one" that we can incorporate into a minimum standard that will always be applicable across the board. By definition, if your preferred mode of analysis doesn't always work in every SFR assignment then it cannot be deemed a minimum standard for everyone to meet. We can require the appraisers using that method to do so competently if/when using it but that's not the same thing as directly including the recipe in USPAP. Or any other form of appraisal standards you can imagine.

Most of what we do in our work is user-driven and in excess of what's explicitly required in SR1/SR2.
 
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HUD has a clue in this jurisdiction, or they would not have filed the complaint.
 
I am in a different world - a higher level of appraisal - a new and more sophisticated standard. ....

I salute you for being special.

I don't begrudge you your opinion of yourself or what additional methods and techniques you use in your work - if you're still doing any appraisal work. USPAP doesn't add any restrictions to how much extra you put into your work. There is no upper limit to what else you can do. If you are having problems selling your methodology to the users of appraisals then those problems have nothing to do with the minimums in USPAP. Render unto your clients and users that discretion which is theirs'.

My point is that if the discussion is about where the minimum standards should be reset for appraisal practice those standards have to be set at a point where they will always apply. Not just under a limited set of circumstances.

This is the reason USPAP doesn't include any instruction or technical specs on any particular approach to value or mode of analysis. How could it? There is no "the one" that we can incorporate into a minimum standard that will always be applicable across the board. By definition, if your preferred mode of analysis doesn't always work in every SFR assignment then it cannot be deemed a minimum standard for everyone to meet. We can require the appraisers using that method to do so competently if/when using it but that's not the same thing as directly including the recipe in USPAP. Or any other form of appraisal standards you can imagine.

Most of what we do in our work is user-driven and in excess of what's explicitly required in SR1/SR2.
That also gets me on influences of some very bad people. So you might choke a little as far as truth and public trust.
 
I am bad boy. I know some things.
 
I am in a different world - a higher level of appraisal - a new and more sophisticated standard. ....

I salute you for being special.
It is nothing more than descriptive fact. I am indeed working at a much different level. If you object to the veritical, higher vs lower terminalogy, that let's say rather I work in a very different "compartment."

I don't begrudge you your opinion of yourself
We are just scratching the surface. I am not in a hurry.

or what additional methods and techniques you use in your work - if you're still doing any appraisal work.
Well, I think that indeed you are.

USPAP doesn't add any restrictions to how much extra you put into your work.
You keep bringing up this ambigrous standard that really doesn't provide protocols. It doesn't provide much as a standard when two licensed appraisers can wind up with a 50% difference in values, get run through a two year legal process in the courts and come out relatively clean ( no action by the BREA). What the heck kind of standard is that? Oh, yea. It is all fluff - no meat.

There is no upper limit to what else you can do.
Are you an expert on "upper limits?" No. You only know what you use - what 99% of other appraisers use.

If you are having problems selling your methodology to the users of appraisals then those problems have nothing to do with the minimums in USPAP.
No, not at all. I had problems when I was at AMD in 1984-1987 selling the idea of abolishing cigarette smoke in the MIS building in Sunnyvale. I hit all the kinds of objections similar those on this forum. Nonsense stuff. It went on for years. I did not give up. Finally we abolished cigarette smoking not only in the MIS building - but all of AMD. And next thing you know it spread through the Silicon Valley, the SF Bay Area. - Yes you do find some cigarette smokers still around - and many are surely appraisers - which is one reason they are indpendant appraisers - they can do what they want like smoke, smoke, smoke. Of course since years, it has become very hard to find a place where you can smoke without getting beat up on, whether it is in a restaurant or an airplane. -- Even a good number of Indian Casino's have prohibited smoking.

It is the people who are hard headed, stubborn, and forceful, who make the real change. You can never expect anything other than that from me. But - I have to get other work done, so my objectives here are trying to get some thing done over a decade or more rather. than this year. It will all follow suit given time.

Render unto your clients and users that discretion which is theirs'.
Are you saying let the smokers smoke their ****?

My point is that if the discussion is about where the minimum standards should be reset for appraisal practice those standards have to be set at a point where they will always apply.
This is the foundation of the reason that I have always said, you need bright people, IQ's in the 140-150+ range, to write standards. Even then cross your fingers and hope for the best. Some fine-tuning will always be needed.

But, for example, you can write a protocol that says:
1. The recommended way to do Task X is according to such and such a flowchart with many if/and/or conditions.
2. Generally, if your situation is A, do X1, if B do X2, if C do X3, .....
3. If doing X2, then do it this way under such and such circumstances. ....
....
If none of the above situations applies to your current situation, then document the reasons, and then provide a new protocol that you have designed with support based on referenced material,to be reviewed and audited by others.

I could provide more elaborate discussion. But you should get the idea.


Not just under a limited set of circumstances.
Well, just like I said, protocols WILL indeed be subject to circumstances. But there should be protocols for all circumstances.

This is the reason USPAP doesn't include any instruction or technical specs on any particular approach to value or mode of analysis.
Nonsense. Engineering standards.

How could it?
Easily. Unless all you have to work with are idiots.

There is no "the one" that we can incorporate into a minimum standard that will always be applicable across the board.
You are extremely narrow minded, unable to handle generalization or "circumstantiation" (my term).
By definition, if your preferred mode of analysis doesn't always work in every SFR assignment then it cannot be deemed a minimum standard for everyone to meet.
You can say at the beginning of your report that:
1. This report was completed in conformance with the following protocols:
a). For the SCA USPAP 2024.20.183.4
b). For the CA USPAP 2024.243.104.8
c). For the IA, USPAP 2024.52.66.8a
d) For the Final Value conclusion, USPAP 2024.1.60.8
Will will support your choice of specific protocols based on the SOW.

We can require the appraisers using that method to do so competently if/when using it but that's not the same thing as directly including the recipe in USPAP.
Well you need to put it somewhere. I would expect that USPAP will be abandonded and that the protocols will be handled at the regional or state level. Remember - AI roaring along. And that in itself necessitates a new modification to all standards.

Go to Cloud or ChatGPT USPAP and ask it: "Can you analyze this standard and report its logical errors , insufficient or ambiguous definitions, any need for clarification, and then suggest a new protocol that also reduces unnecessary duplication in its rules?" (Of course the actual details on specification for a new USPAP standard would be far more detailed and require a number of iterations to get right.)

Most of what we do in our work is user-driven and in excess of what's explicitly required in SR1/SR2.
Again, SR1 and SR2 are very high level, have faults. We need standards that guarantee fair appraisals, and as much objectivity as possible. USPAP, in its current state is a mess.

It's worshippers often compare it to the 1980 when there was no standard. Well, as someone recently told me: "It's water under the bridge."

The bridges need to be repaired or in some cases torn down and rebuilt --- IN MORE WAYS THAN ONE.
 
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That's nothing, I have another one.

26405 Scenic Road, Carmel, CA
Primary SF: 2,933 SF
Lot: 7,585 SF
Sold: 3/18/2024
Price: $15,250,000
Age: 41 years

$15,250,000/2,933SF = $5,199.45/SF

This one, though, has a nice view overlooking the ocean, near the beach.

From the MLS:

"This immaculately renovated oceanfront beach house located on the highly sought-after Carmel Point section of Scenic Road features unobstructed panoramic views of both the Santa Lucia Mountains and rugged Carmel Coastline. The upfront and jaw-dropping views of River Beach, Stewarts Cove, Point Lobos, and the Fish Ranch, are all visible throughout the spacious, high-beam ceiling living room and gourmet kitchen. Adding to the ambiance of this coastal-living masterpiece is the welcoming, interior courtyard, a large warm fireplace, and the entire second-story primary bedroom retreat at the top of the storybook, circular staircase. With 4 spacious bedrooms, 4 bathrooms, ~2,933 square feet of bright and vibrant interior space, upstairs and downstairs laundry rooms, and outdoor living areas spread across an extra large 7,585 SqFt lot, this property boasts the rare combination of space, views, proximity to town, easy access from the south end of Scenic, and living right at the beach with all the luxuries of a modern, high-end home. This is Carmel Point living at its finest."

So, as I recall, although Ben Heinrich said "cost/sf", I should have made the context clearer and said "price/sf"


The "price per square foot" in real estate agent terms is, in the buyer's perspective "cost per square foot," and in the sellers perspective, "sale price per square foot". However, both buyers and sellers use "price per square foot" interchangeably with "cost per square foot." And it could be with respect to Listing Price or Sale Price. AIt means (Total Listing/Sale Price)/GLA.

Yet, it is important of course to note that appraisers themselves use "cost per square foot" to mean different things depending on the context:

a) Construction Costs for different land and improvement components, e.g. living area, garages, raw land, improved land, ....
b) Adjustments for land, improvements
c) ...
 
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So, as I recall, although Ben Heinrich said "cost/sf", I should have made the context clearer and said "price/sf"


The "price per square foot" in real estate agent terms is, in the buyer's perspective "cost per square foot," and in the sellers perspective, "sale price per square foot". However, both buyers and sellers use "price per square foot" interchangeably with "cost per square foot." And it could be with respect to Listing Price or Sale Price. AIt means (Total Listing/Sale Price)/GLA.

Yet, it is important of course to note that appraisers themselves use "cost per square foot" to mean different things depending on the context:

a) Construction Costs for different land and improvement components, e.g. living area, garages, raw land, improved land, ....
b) Adjustments for land, improvements
c) ...
In order to please you, can you please look up definition of "asking price" and "sales price"?
 
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