• Welcome to AppraisersForum.com, the premier online  community for the discussion of real estate appraisal. Register a free account to be able to post and unlock additional forums and features.

This may be the straw to break the camels back

Status
Not open for further replies.
Whenever I read a thread like this my first reaction is disgust and contempt for the whole system. But then I think, what if every appraiser reading this wrote their congress person and HUD and explained that what is wrong with appraising is the same that is wrong with the accounting profession....there needs to be a Chinese firewall between loan origination and underwriting, of which appraising is a big part.
 
Sorry, guys. But there's nothing wrong with HUD that just enforcing the existing regs wouldn't take care of. It would be nice to have people enforcing that actually worked in the field at some point in their careers so that they actually understood what the #$@%they were talking about, but that's probably dreaming.

The "watch" thingie is just the latest gotcha for appraisers. Let's face it. There's basically 2 kinds of "bad guy" appraisers as far as the watch thing goes.

1. The fraud promoters that ignore everything in proximity to subject to "make" the numbers and/or all the problems with the home (deferred maintenance) or site (i.e., toxic dump next door) to make the deal. You CANNOT legislate morals.

2. Or then the fools that in the typical mark et out there during the last 5 years, worked on manufactured housing. Makes no difference how many hours or skills you develop in your craft. If you get on the watch because the "numbers" are higher than acceptable, then you're in do-do.

Where does it say that the value proven based on all the available new home (legit not fraud) in your market area proved that value on THAT DATE; but since then, the trashed out and/or fraudulent deals crammed into that overall county has crashed the market, so now let's all hang the appraiser cause obviously it will be his fault for accepting that mfg home deal.

In the Greater Houston market area, one outfit has all but destroyed several counties because they were "able" to prove darn near any value a dealership wanted. Whether that buyer was informed or able to pay for it had nothing to do with the "number" that the appraiser came up with. No question he has tainted the market down here, but should everybody else then get hung out to dry because he tainted the market and now all the trash is coming home to roost? Plenty of appraisers with due diligence and great skills did honest appraisals, but if and when they go into foreclosure they are going to be put in the same bag as this jerk. The industry standard is somewhere around 30-35% foreclosure rate for manufactured housing. Where does that make it the appraiser's fault?

Any reasonable brain-working appraiser knows in MOST markets once it goes into foreclosure it is gonna take a dive. The degree of the dive depends on the market: 10%, 15%, 25%, 50% or worse.

Just did REO on one for HUD where nobody would expect the entire subdivision to go down a few years back. Now that seems to be the wave. Makes no difference whether the original appraisals were honest or not; all the difference is in whether it flooded? whether there is massive structural problems with setup done by developer/dealership? And no appraiser can overcome the "engineer's seal" of approval. So yeah, even good appraisers could get burned with this new setup.

We have all but run off most of our mfg work because of the fear of HUD and FNMA. We have watched the default rates climb, and the problems soar. We accept very few assignments and darn near drown ourselves in paperwork and proof prior to even going out to inspect the properties. We only want to work for a very, very few and are thinking about only working for one. Maybe if more appraisers refused to work for them, these dealers would get the message. No. Not gonna happen. We went from doing several hundred down to less than 10-15% of that a year. It is just not worth the risk. In our market, the last 3 years have proven they don't hold value. And please don't drown me with all the fraud crapola reports, ours were not part of that group. We just got tired of fighting. We don't make "equity" positions, nor are we gonna give the dealers a value $10k+- more than what the true market is for that unit.

The biggest problem down here has been the number makers, fraud, and greed of the dealers. But we can't blame HUD/FHA for that. Review the overall volume of the appraiser and the QUALITY of his work. Then review the sticks, then review the manfuactured homes. If you've got high rates and all you've done is sticks...there may be a problem either in your market or with the appraiser. Manufactured homes? If you do them, you're numbers are just gonna be higher. But if there are no good appraisers willing to risk doing them, then maybe FHA will get the message and look into the quality of the work just a little bit deeper. After all it is not the appraiser's fault if they don't pay for it. Was it an honest appraisal at that point in time...now that's the ticket.
 
Only in our government; First paragraph it is the Appraisers fault. Next paragraph gonna increase the number of poor & minorities in homeownership offering more loans with no money out of pocket. Here in this small town of 2,700 homes we have 2 that are verifiable homes that have been foreclosed on & both families have bought another home in this town. Both the foreclosed home & the NEW ones purchased ARE FHA Financed. Love my country Distrust my government. 2 words have been extracted from the English Language COMMON SENSE. "No money out of my pocket Y should I care".
 
I am still trying to figure out how a default rate can be laid at the door of the appraisal but then I've only been at this appraisal/real estate business for 27 years. Maybe when I get some experience, I will understand it.

In the meantime, perhaps it is time for the signers of the petition to rise up and respond. In the news release, it said the following:


HUD will accept comments on the proposal from the public and other interested parties for 60 days after it is published in the Federal Register. The Department is especially interested in comments related to threshold levels for evaluating appraiser performance, age of the appraisals, mitigating circumstances that should be considered and severity of sanctions levied. Those comments should be submitted to: Regulations Division, Office of General Counsel, HUD, Room 10276, 471 7th Street SW, Washington, DC, 20410.


Perhaps we need to have every person who signed the petition write a letter and voice his or her opinion on this issue. Perhaps public response will have an effect on this proposed rule.


Comments are sent to:

Regulations Division, Office of General Counsel, HUD, Room 10276, 471 7th Street SW, Washington, DC, 20410
 
Developing a rule to stop "flipping" - quickly reselling properties at inflated values - of FHA insured loans. The proposal would make properties that have been sold within a defined period of time ineligible for FHA insurance, effectively prohibiting resale of the property.

So investors out there doing legal flips, do you hear this one? You buy an REO, legitimately repair and refurbish for a profit, and in FHA's eyes you are illegal.

C'mon, is this the only way to stop fraudulent flipping schemes? We must deny the investor/entreprenuer doing a legit flip the opportunity to sell to an FHA buyer? You mean to tell me doing the necessary investigation to determine reasonable repairs=increase in value, and/or real supportable market resale values is not enough to shake out the bad ones? I know I read about the developments in the NE where the entire subdivision was a flipping scheme... Fine. What's wrong with requiring an additional comparable or two from competing developments? Maybe a review appraisal???

Nope, we have to throw the baby out with the bath water! :roll:
 
When writing to FHA be sure to include the petition. As long as we do 100% financing including closing cost COMMON SENSE is we will have a problem. Investors that fix up & resell, well either the people go conventional or investor hold the mortgage. Whenever U allow the Government to HELP U U have invited them to control U.
 
Caterina:

I don't believe there is such a thing as a legit flip. What you described is someone purchasing a property at a below market price, correcting the deferred maintenance and then selling the property at market. Thats just good business. It would be stupid for HUD to oppose this idea because it will make it more difficult to sell their REO properties. Of course, there isn't a lot of evidence that HUD is smart.
 
I agree with Caterina. I've 'flipped' dozens of properties myself and can't believe how the term has finally taken on an illegal context. It's people like you and I who buy those trashed out houses, fix them up, and help maintain some bit of stability in those types of neighborhoods.

HUD seems to think that buyers are always being taken advantage of. If a buyer has marginal credit and wants to buy a house with seller financing, then they should pay a high interest rate. Without the incenvtive of higher rates on seller financing, many buyers would never be able to buy a house at all.

Ironically, it's HUD who doesn't charge enough fees on their mortgages to cover the costs of their foreclosures! Us taxpayers keep bailing them out because of their bleeding heart attitudes towards buyers who don't know what it means to be responsible. As a private investor, I have an incentive to buy low and sell high and to charge a high enough interest rate to cover the risk of buyers with poor credit. Maybe HUD could learn a thing or two...

Pat
 
Larry,

I rubbed my eyes and re read the bulleted item before I quoted it. Did it again after your post. The way I interpret - any property that has been sold within zzz period of time prior to current proposed FHA purchase money loan will be ineligible for FHA insurance.

The 'flip' term has been discussed here several times. Seems to have taken on a rather negative connotation due to the illegal schemes of the past several years. Not wanting to argue terminology, but as I have had it explained to me, a 'flip' is defined as just what we are talking about, an investor refurbished dwelling resold at current market value. Whether you call an honest resale in less than 12 months (or whatever time frame they choose) a flip, investor refurbish, or even 'Whoops! Bought a house, my company transferred me 3 mos. later', it will still be ineligible for FHA financing. The many legitmate cases of resales within zzz period of time will be thrown out of the program.

I won't bash the entire HUD program, as I have seen some legit and reasonable guidelines developed. For instance, in the case of new construction- at least one comparable must be by another builder than the subject's. (prevents across the board 'builder incentives' from a particular builder from appearing to be the market norm, if in fact it isn't). Or the requirement of an engineer's report on manufactured foundations - takes the monkey off the appraiser's back. But you are correct, in many cases, HUD guidelines and directives often lack a common sense approach. This just appears to be one of them.
 
Read Richard's posting about 6 or 7 back up the thread several hours ago. O.K., I went for it. I wrote a 2-pager of 8 1/2x 14 and it will be mailed later this afternoon. I am not on the FHA roster and decided a few years ago when HUD/FHA was running their TV ads and adding responsibilities to appraisers duties which were the normal duty of the other (licensed) home inspectors and engineers. I really would only want to do their assignments if the house was less than five years of age....but that is cherry-picking one's assignments, right ? In my letter of comment to the watch initiative (link) I addressed a few things which I felt were pertinent....1) the absurdity of two sentences in their initiative (1st sentence of 3rd paragraph and 2nd sentence of 6th paragraph), 2) the wrongful "blame" heaped on appraisers for disclosing facts about challenged properties, 3) the lack of an equally-weighted watch list for bad lenders and other particiapants, 4) poor mortgage and credit counseling for prospective buyers, 5) that loss of employment and credit card abuse are major causes of default on loans, 5) the increased reliance on AVM's, 6) lender pressure and coercion and the two-to-tango reality of bad appraisers working with bad lender reps, and 7) the destructive and inappropriate client concepts of appraisal orders showing estimates-of-value, requests for comp checks, requests for "early" reporting of progress toward estimates of value, threats of non-payment for reports not meeting client's expectations. Closed out by cordially thanking them for the opportunity to share some feelings on the issues. One does not know however to what file, or pile, or round recepticle on the corner my letter will go. After sealing the envelope I realized I did not mention the Forum or the Petition ! Perhaps someone else would be willing to mention them.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Find a Real Estate Appraiser - Enter Zip Code

Copyright © 2000-, AppraisersForum.com, All Rights Reserved
AppraisersForum.com is proudly hosted by the folks at
AppraiserSites.com
Back
Top