USPAP 3 year disclosure question

[Terrel L. Shields]

where in USPAP does it state that there can only be 1 signed certification

Where does it say there needs to be more than one? Where does it refer to "certifications" plural? It does not. Std 2-2, "the names of persons providing significant real property appraisal assistance must be STATED IN THE CERTIFICATION.." It does not say stated in A certification..."The" implies ONE, UNO, UNITY...one, read my lips... and it doesn't say that if the info is provided by a CORPORATION that I have to know who prepared the data for the credit bureau or the assessor. Words matter to lawyers, therefore we need to be aware of the word landmines.
Ethics Rule U - 8 "an appraiser must disclose to the clients, and in the subsequent REPORT CERTIFICATION...." Did it say "certifications?" Did it say "A" certifiction??

What other professional report has more than one signatory page? Only architects and engineers to my knowledge and they have to sign and STAMP every drawing, not every report.

I'll take them (TAF) for their word. It goes in the CERTIFICATION (1) and if the form monkeys cannot comply, so what? Isn't it exactly like the required certification itself? When Fannie did the 1999 change over, TAF urged them to change the certs to match USPAP identical (pg. U-28, 2-2, lines 857-883) When TAF complained to fannie mae that the fannie mae certification was NOT IDENTICAL to that in USPAP, fannie told them to go take a flying flock at a rolling donut and TAF did...they backed down. In that case, fannie made a good point, USPAP clearly stated it only needed to be "similar in content" to the stated certification, and fannie mae's is.

USPAP is an idiot document. It says one thing, implies something else, and anyone who says the understand every word of it in its context is a liar. In SOW we have to explain what we did, but it also says we... [in such an the asinine statement]
"..and might include disclosure of research and analyses not performed..." Gee, I didn't hire an engineer to give me an analysis of the soil conditions. I didn't hire an architect to give me an estimate of the "green" potential of the property. I didn't hire a geologist to tell me if an earthquake is likely. I didn't sample the sheetrock to see if it was made in China or contained toxic materials. where would such a list end? Like the "self-contained" report as John Widdoss described it..."I don't know what that is. Where does it end?"

That's all I ask. Where does the BS end? Ten years ago I predicted USPAP would be 400 pages long and perhaps as long as 2000 pages in 30 years. We are on track with every edition, as the document devolves into the coven of inscrutible myticism. Eventually, the scribes will meet in freemasonry garb and chant prayers to the USPAP Gods...what else explains such mindless changes?

 

[Don Clark]

Where does it say there needs to be more than one? Where does it refer to "certifications" plural? It does not. Std 2-2, "the names of persons providing significant real property appraisal assistance must be STATED IN THE CERTIFICATION.." It does not say stated in A certification..."The" implies ONE, UNO, UNITY...one, read my lips... and it doesn't say that if the info is provided by a CORPORATION that I have to know who prepared the data for the credit bureau or the assessor. Words matter to lawyers, therefore we need to be aware of the word landmines.
Ethics Rule U - 8 "an appraiser must disclose to the clients, and in the subsequent REPORT CERTIFICATION...." Did it say "certifications?" Did it say "A" certifiction??

What other professional report has more than one signatory page? Only architects and engineers to my knowledge and they have to sign and STAMP every drawing, not every report.

I'll take them (TAF) for their word. It goes in the CERTIFICATION (1) and if the form monkeys cannot comply, so what? Isn't it exactly like the required certification itself? When Fannie did the 1999 change over, TAF urged them to change the certs to match USPAP identical (pg. U-28, 2-2, lines 857-883) When TAF complained to fannie mae that the fannie mae certification was NOT IDENTICAL to that in USPAP, fannie told them to go take a flying flock at a rolling donut and TAF did...they backed down. In that case, fannie made a good point, USPAP clearly stated it only needed to be "similar in content" to the stated certification, and fannie mae's is.

USPAP is an idiot document. It says one thing, implies something else, and anyone who says the understand every word of it in its context is a liar. In SOW we have to explain what we did, but it also says we... [in such an the asinine statement]
"..and might include disclosure of research and analyses not performed..." Gee, I didn't hire an engineer to give me an analysis of the soil conditions. I didn't hire an architect to give me an estimate of the "green" potential of the property. I didn't hire a geologist to tell me if an earthquake is likely. I didn't sample the sheetrock to see if it was made in China or contained toxic materials. where would such a list end? Like the "self-contained" report as John Widdoss described it..."I don't know what that is. Where does it end?"

That's all I ask. Where does the BS end? Ten years ago I predicted USPAP would be 400 pages long and perhaps as long as 2000 pages in 30 years. We are on track with every edition, as the document devolves into the coven of inscrutible myticism. Eventually, the scribes will meet in freemasonry garb and chant prayers to the USPAP Gods...what else explains such mindless changes?

Gee Terrell, tell us how you really feel

Common sense goes a long way in solving many problems. Since TAF has no regulatory authority I will do what I can and believe that the state(s) regulatory boards may have enough collective common sense to see that compliance was done the best way possible.

BTW, if you really want to make a difference, why not send your concerns to TAF. I am sure they will give them the proper consideration. And, I say that because most changes to the standards start from communications to TAF by people like you and I. Or, do nothing and just grow more bitter with time.

 

[Terrel L. Shields]

I've wrote them before and they don't give the decency of a response....ask them sometime how much cash they have on hand....it's a bunch.

When it comes to regulations and USPAP is usually considered a administrative regulatory issue, words count, like i said, and generalizations are rarely interpreted uncontested.

We have seen it in action. State investigators who investigate a party will do the old "fine tooth comb" bit when they run into a party whom they think is significantly "errant" and the person whom they know and who has the MAI behind their name may get a much easier "pass"...happens all the time in every profession. Nobody ever accused a government agency of applying "common sense"...

Further it is a given, the older and longer you have appraised, the less likely you will get that "bye"....

 

[Couch Potato]

Where does it say there needs to be more than one? Where does it refer to "certifications" plural? It does not. Std 2-2, "the names of persons providing significant real property appraisal assistance must be STATED IN THE CERTIFICATION.." It does not say stated in A certification..."The" implies ONE, UNO, UNITY...one, read my lips... and it doesn't say that if the info is provided by a CORPORATION that I have to know who prepared the data for the credit bureau or the assessor. Words matter to lawyers, therefore we need to be aware of the word landmines.
Ethics Rule U - 8 "an appraiser must disclose to the clients, and in the subsequent REPORT CERTIFICATION...." Did it say "certifications?" Did it say "A" certifiction??

What other professional report has more than one signatory page? Only architects and engineers to my knowledge and they have to sign and STAMP every drawing, not every report.

I'll take them (TAF) for their word. It goes in the CERTIFICATION (1) and if the form monkeys cannot comply, so what? Isn't it exactly like the required certification itself? When Fannie did the 1999 change over, TAF urged them to change the certs to match USPAP identical (pg. U-28, 2-2, lines 857-883) When TAF complained to fannie mae that the fannie mae certification was NOT IDENTICAL to that in USPAP, fannie told them to go take a flying flock at a rolling donut and TAF did...they backed down. In that case, fannie made a good point, USPAP clearly stated it only needed to be "similar in content" to the stated certification, and fannie mae's is.

USPAP is an idiot document. It says one thing, implies something else, and anyone who says the understand every word of it in its context is a liar. In SOW we have to explain what we did, but it also says we... [in such an the asinine statement]
"..and might include disclosure of research and analyses not performed..." Gee, I didn't hire an engineer to give me an analysis of the soil conditions. I didn't hire an architect to give me an estimate of the "green" potential of the property. I didn't hire a geologist to tell me if an earthquake is likely. I didn't sample the sheetrock to see if it was made in China or contained toxic materials. where would such a list end? Like the "self-contained" report as John Widdoss described it..."I don't know what that is. Where does it end?"

That's all I ask. Where does the BS end? Ten years ago I predicted USPAP would be 400 pages long and perhaps as long as 2000 pages in 30 years. We are on track with every edition, as the document devolves into the coven of inscrutible myticism. Eventually, the scribes will meet in freemasonry garb and chant prayers to the USPAP Gods...what else explains such mindless changes?

First, let me answer your question. The BS will never end since it exists in an infinite supply.

Now I will follow your example and provide some proof of that statement. I don't think anyone at the Appraisal Foundation would begin to claim USPAP is anywhere near perfect. I do think they would say it is better than it was, and is heading in the right direction. The idiotic "self-contained" crap will likely be gone before long. That change will likely result in fewer pages, not more, but even now it is only 97 pages long, not 400. (Okay, 105 if you count the forward, but the endless crap at the back doesn't count.) I disagree that the statement that you might include disclosure of things not done is asinine. No, you don't need to include the fact you did not launch a satellite to study the subject property over a ten-year period prior to doing the appraisal, but there are some things that you would need to disclose if they were not done. For instance, if you have never seen the property, it should be disclosed. Simply failing to say you did is not sufficient. What are the limits on what you disclose as not doing? That will depend on the assignment, and should be determined by the appraiser's good judgement. I am fine with the fact failing to have the judgement needed to make that call properly is a USPAP violation.

I agree with your analysis of the disclosure of prior services in the certification. USPAP requires the disclosure in the certification. Fannie forms prohibited alteration of the certification. Those facts combine to mean an appraiser cannot produce an appraisal report on a fannie form for a property where they have provided services within the past three years without violating USPAP. Therefore, all such assignments should be declined. I don't think it is necessarily the way it should be, but it is the way it is.

One nice by product about making it a USPAP violation to appraise a property on a fannie form after performing any prior service is that would include the infamous "comp check" service.

 

[Rich Heyn]

USPAP has no requirement for "bunching" or contiguity of certifications. When you sign the report, you are accepting responsibility for the entire report, certifications included. Like Don suggested, top of page three is likely the best place for additional certifications.

And Fannie has no prohibition against additional certifications.

 

[Couch Potato]

Rich, your post lacks an appropriate level of BS for this thread.

 

[PropertyEconomics]

I believe it best to place a Supplemental Certification in the report, stating whether you have or have not performed any service on the subject property in the prior three years. USPAP does not require it, but I believe common sense and good business practice would make it something every appraiser should consider ....

 

[Terrel L. Shields]

When you sign the report, you are accepting responsibility for the entire report,

That is not the way I read USPAP....your signature on the transmittal is meaningless..You can sign every page of the report but only one page counts... It is the "Certification" that has to be signed, nothing more.

That change will likely result in fewer pages, not more, but even now it is only 97 pages long, not 400. (Okay, 105 if you count the forward, but the endless crap at the back doesn't count.)

The devil is in the details and USPAP details are world class bs...Like trying to say AOs are not "USPAP" My book has forward pages, 12-14, then the U section Foreward is 8 pages, Standards are 97; Advisory Opinions are 114; Q&A is 144; and, the index is 18...that's 393-395 to my count...they are all in the book.
Rich - again it says "certification"...PE describes how most of us handle it..it's in a "supplemental" certification. My point is what purpose does it serve to place that in the "Certification"? Why wouldn't you likewise place the sales history in the certification? Or, the legal? I mean what was the point?

USPAP does not require it, but I believe common sense

"common sense" has about as much in "common" with TAF as Spanish Bullfight has to do with the Department of Agriculture.
They have had 2 years to change a single paragraph. Even the Fed's Market committee only spends 2 days arguing over whether to change the wording of the Fed statement to signal the markets of a future rate hike. And all they can come up with is that it needs to be placed in the certification....

 

[PropertyEconomics]

Mr. Shields .. I do not disagree with you. In fact I, and many others, wrote letters to TAF about this very issue, all of which to my knowledge were negative and TAF went ahead and did what they wanted anyway. With all due respect to Mr. Clark .. I personally dont think they give a rats arse about the appraisal profession .. they are going to do what they damn well wish anyway ... the rules affect us .. not them.

 

[Terrel L. Shields]

Rules for the sake of creating rules only dumbs down the profession and TAF surely understands that these Mickey Mouse changes are cosmetic. I still find it maddening in any profession or government agency to make explicit rules that for all practical purposes either makes a lot of people liars or creates a pointless addition to the word landmine we already are trotting thru like pigs in WWI...every once in a while we watch as one of our buddies gets blown to bits and can we wonder when we will get it. Some quit in disgust. Some get sanctioned and are forced out. No one benefits. Our profession is pretty much the creation of bank rules. And in the banking-lending-Real Estate world we've saved no one. We've helped no one. We couldn't stop stupid lending, stupid borrowing, nor stupid price inflation. What point in our existance? Put the profession to sleep.

I honestly believe that TAF is sitting on a pile of our cash, that the ASC would love a big chunk of it, and TAF is in the "make work" business to appear to be important enough not to shut down and take that hoard of money and spend it somewhere else.