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Virgina REAB and Portal Petition

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So, a client, a report, are not necessary for an appraiser to have to comply with USPAP.

True - If you recall your instructor course, preparing those documents would fall into Circle 2, and USPAP does apply. I never said it didn't.

When I created the sample documents there was no client, there was no assignment, there are no assignments results, and the documents posted are not "reports." Therefore, there are no applicable Standards Rules.

Teaching as an appraiser obligates one to follow USPAP. Just as there are no Standards Rules for teaching, there are no Standards Rules for preparing samples of file conversions.

The allegation was that the samples were misleading. I did not modify the converted files, I simply posted the results so interested parties could view them. What is misleading about that?
 
Mr. Hatch;

I respect you tremendously and have always found your posts to be thoughtful. However, I must disagree with you on this issue.

When these various software conversion programs will not allow you to include what you deem necessary documentation, photos, or pages, then the analysis, opinions and conclusions can become misleading.

This is not about appraisers rights. This is about an appraisers obligation to produce a complete report, not some abridged version of said report. This is about the integrity and completeness of reports. You are advocating for the clients, which is not our job. The only need a client has is for an accurate, complete and thorough opinion of value and physical characateristics. What the lenders want is not necessarily good for the public trust and that is clearly evidenced by the current mortgage mess. (I owe ya a copyright fee, P)

This is not about convenience for appraisers. This is about maintaining the completeness and format of the appraisal as written by the appraiser. When we start allowing a conversion program to decide what is and is not important, it is no longer our appraisal.

It IS about integrity and security, as delivered to the client. What they choose to do after the fact is not our concern. I have no problem with lenders doing whatever they choose once the report has been delivered. They are free to use it in any legal way they see fit. If they so badly desire these reports be converted, then they are free to convert them. However, they don't want the responsibility, as stated by Mr. Owen. No, they would much prefer the responsibility (can you spell LIABILITY) lies with the appraiser. And therein is one of my issues. I am to be held liable for a report, but I cannot deliver it in the format and order I intended? I think not. I am to be held liable for a report of which I cannot produce a true copy? I think not.:peace:
Thank you Bearslide!

IMO:

The appraisal report, as originated by the appraiser in their respective appraisal report software program, and including all pages, and all information within the text fields, and check boxes marked as input by the appraiser, and NOT moved or deleted IS the Original. Any "True Copy" MUST be in the same order and that is what MUST be delivered to the named client.

If the client determines one of these conversion programs is wanted to be used, the client is the one that must send it to whatever company that will do that for them and will take 100% responsibility for any changes that conversion program makes. The appraiser's name and/or signature CANNOT be applied to any of these converted reports.

"What the lenders want is not necessarily good for the public trust and that is clearly evidenced by the current mortgage mess."

and

"At this time, nobody knows how many mortgage files contain an appraisal report that is not what the appraiser sent."
Many (most?) because of these 'conversion' programs!

(Quotes by P.E.Crowley)
 
True - If you recall your instructor course, preparing those documents would fall into Circle 2, and USPAP does apply. I never said it didn't.

When I created the sample documents there was no client, there was no assignment, there are no assignments results, and the documents posted are not "reports." Therefore, there are no applicable Standards Rules.

Teaching as an appraiser obligates one to follow USPAP. Just as there are no Standards Rules for teaching, there are no Standards Rules for preparing samples of file conversions.

The allegation was that the samples were misleading. I did not modify the converted files, I simply posted the results so interested parties could view them. What is misleading about that?

Perhaps i had the wrong impression. It appeared that you and Rich seemed to say that without an assignment, and a client, that an appraiser was not bound by USPAP. I appreciate the clarification.
 
Moderator Post:

Some posters here are getting way too emotional and posting specifically to another forum member things that would be considered insulting.

Warnings do not seem to work very well for some, so after a brief moderator's discussion, any more insults will cause the insulting poster to be banned from further participation in this thread at least and received an infraction that could lead to being banned from the whole forum.

Any posts that are made that are not on topic or have the appearance of being posted only to instigate further emotional outburst will be removed and that poster to be at least banned from this thread.

Those that want to critique the moderators can either do so via reporting the post they are concerned about or go start your own forum that you can moderate as you see fit.
 
"At this time, nobody knows how many mortgage files contain an appraisal report that is not what the appraiser sent."
Many (most?) because of these 'conversion' programs!
(Quotes by P.E.Crowley)
That's one way of putting it. Another way is that as far as we know, there are no conversion programs that systematically change the value on a report.
 
Mr. Wiley,

In the good old days it would have been pistols at dawn, but since were suppose to be professionals I'll just have to refer this to my attorney.

.


When I sat in Standards class in November of 1992 in St. Louis, Missouri, I met Danny Wiley. At the time he was a struggling barely SRA making I believe $28,000 per year. He was an SRA, mind you, with a degree from Vanderbilt, and he was struggling with what to do, as he'd been in this for 5 years and being paid, really, probably not much more than minimum wage. His mentor would not make him a partner. At that ponit in time, I had never measured a house. Danny's wife was managing a local Kroger grocery market. These are self made people today and Danny has, from the bottom, reached the pinnacle of our profession. I could be wrong, but Danny and his family are living the American dream. He's worked for everything he's ever had, as have many here. I've never seen him hold his position in our field over anyone.

That November evening, we sat at a bar and talked. He started sketching houses for a fellow as he was going through college while studying, I think nuclear engineering. Correct me if I'm wrong. Though I ain't no dummy and have done well enough, it was clear to me then and now that Danny is a genius in terms of mental capability and capacity. However, Danny had the ability to talk on my level, that being a mid 130's IQ with graduate honors, but no genius. That is a rare combination. He sat there and almost asked me, an absolute nobody, for advice as to whether he should go on his own, as it was clear that he wasn't going to be paid what he should be paid if he did not make a change.

He is a Vanderbilt grad, and I was a grad from a neighboring university. In the old days, George, you would have been dead. Thankfully we are not in the old days. That November of 92, Danny invited me went to his room and Danny showed me his multi thousand dollar pistol he used in competition. He's a crackshot and had spent a large fraction of his annual income on a pistol. Being in the south, we hit it off with good conversation. We all love guns.

I happen to like and respect most all of you. As far as my position on the issue, I don't care what happens so long as it puts more money in my pocket as a residential appraiser. I'm not sure which side that is on. That is my position, I just haven't picked a side. In my view, either way, residential appraisers will take it up the backside. This has been the way since at least the late 90's, if not earlier.

To this day, Danny speaks to me in classes, and he refers work from time to time. I do the same, when I can. I had a major fraud review case that I quite comfortable referred towards Danny as well as one other Nashville person, as I didn't do reviews at the time. Danny calls me and emails me upon occasion. He's not sitting on some high horse. He's got a bigger operation than I do, being a one man shop, but he is nice as he can be to me. He has not once talked down to me. He's not once held his superior understanding of USPAP or appraisal technique/methods over me.

Calm down, we'll lose either way, so everyone keep your panties out of a wad. The world and America's mortgage banking system will move on, either way. Remember, if it's under $250,000 you are not needed anyway. Farm Credit Services in my area of Tennessee has been using licensed appraisers as staff, for years. They are not hiring many appraisers anymore. Know who they are hiring? Evaluators. Evaluators are doing all kinds of farm "evals" up to $1,000,000 now. Guess what evaluators get paid? Evaluator pay < Appraiser pay, simple as that. It is my understanding that it is, and I quote: "working out real well for them".

We are nobody and are lowly insects, in the grand scheme of things. Let's get along folks. Make your cases, and no hard feelings. It ain't good out there for anyone. Maybe my view is slanted being in an area with some of the highest unemployment in the state.

For some reason I'm reminded of the local country music stars who have tried to stop downloading music from the internet. Garth Brooks even wanted to make trading used CD's illegal. Technology and information tranfer is a difficult thing to slow, as much as I might stand to lose from it.
 
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To me, this is really pretty simple. Its not that big of a deal. The delivery of the appraisal report shoudl contain two files. One is a pdf document that we create. The other is a data packet, in a common format that can be used by the client's to populate their computer systems. It can not be that hard, can it? The most difficult part would be getting the industry (lenders and software providers) to agree on the common language/format in which to transmit the data packet.

I think this is a pretty elegant compromise. If the issue really is report security and integrity then the only downside is the additional demands on bandwidth and storage capacity - I think that's a price everyone could live with.

Would any of the pro-petitioners care to comment on this suggestion?
 
Pamela Crowley (Florida);1651389]
If the client determines one of these conversion programs is wanted to be used, the client is the one that must send it to whatever company that will do that for them and will take 100% responsibility for any changes that conversion program makes. The appraiser's name and/or signature CANNOT be applied to any of these converted reports.

That, Ms Crowley, is the most appropriate solution. IF the main reason for conversion is "data streamlining", or electronic QC review, there is absolutely NO need for the appraiser to do the conversion or have their name/signature associated with it. With a set up as you suggest, the lender has been given a true copy. If they mess with it, distort it, "accidentally" alter something, the appraiser is not liable - the lender is. Perhaps, with responsibility placed where it belongs, a lot of shenanagins would cease.

When people are forced to take responsibility for their actions, their actions usually become responsible. We are past due for some responsibility.....way past. A MOST excellent suggestion. Everyone wins - the lenders get what they want (or have been sold), appraisers are not liable for changes, and the public might just be treated to a modicum of responsible behavior from the lenders. How absolutely refreshing!
 
I think the answer to that question of whether the converted copy is a true legal copy that carries with it liability to the appraiser is revealing itself.

Put the smoke and the mirrors away, No examples, USPAP compliant or not are necessary.

The fact that the appraiser is required to do the conversion answers the question quite clearly.


.
 
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Rather than speaking rhetorically, splitting hairs, or whatever else people want to do, let's get down to brass tacks (has that one been used yet).

Two files are attached. One is a PDF generated from my native software. One is a PDF generated from AIReady.

I started with a real report, but changed the address, names, etc. to generate a totally fictional report for demonstartion purposes. Only subject photos were included because of file size limitations of the Forum software (a little irony there).

Can someone please tell specifically the problems created by the conversion? What grievous thing has the conversion done? This is a chance to back up those allegations. If there is such a big problem, then several of you should easily be able to demonstrate it for the whole world to see using these two samples.

He started with a real report...
 
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