Where Do You Think "geographic Competency" Begins And Ends?

[George Hatch]

That is good, but that is you, personally do you think those who have the mindset of appraiser coach who love to tout how fast and "efficient" they are, pumping out volume ( using who knows knows what shortcuts), will care about competence, geo or otherwise? These are exactly the kind of appraisers who will say they are competent to appraise anywhere, and the entities that use them can't wait to train a new crop who won't let a little thing like geo competence slow them down. Raised and trained on data rather than knowledge, awarded assignments on scorecards using speed as a metric, they don't have to time to understand assignment specific or geo competency is, let alone develop it.
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Bifurcated will keep appraisers at the desk. Once the argument is made a local person inspecting gets adequate results and it will be forever pointed out that appraisers themselves said geo competence is not needed!, it opens a door that can't be closed.

Still doesn't answer my original question,

How come,

Danny has the question,

George writes the poll,

And you get upset over the answers?

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I didn't think that people were unaware of how long Danny Wiley and I have known each other or how closely we agree on most things related to USPAP.


If you're asking whether Danny and I have discussed a myriad of appraisal issues with each other on a regular basis over the last 15 years, the answer is "yes". We generally talk with each other once or twice a month, almost enirely about USPAP stuff. If you're asking whether or not Danny's approach to these concepts and principles have resonated with me since the first and only time we met in person in Los Angeles when I attended the first AQB USPAP Instructor course - which he was teaching - the answer to that question is "Yes", too.

But if you think that our relationship has only recently been of effect on my perspectives then you're dead wrong. I would never have passed the USPAP Instructor Course had I not understood what he was saying up there behind the podium; I would never have brought those perspectives and explanations to this forum and promulgated them on the consistent basis for all these years since then had I not been a true believer. And whatever people's perceptions of my current understanding is I also wouldn't have accrued THAT reputation if not for agreeing with how the abstracts connect to the specifics of what we do every day.

 

[J Grant]

GH-I asked the question in the abstract because i'm trying to suss out the underlying fundamentals, which are significant to the extent that if a concept is true it will hold up consistently across a wide range of specific situations rather than just a couple of them. In general, the specifics tend to be an expression of the fundamentals.

There it is, the answers about geo competence will be used to "suss out the fundamentals, " which" will hold up across a wide range of specific situations"- don't be surprised, when these "situations" becomes desktop appraising by done anyone, anywhere, since the fundamentals were "sussed out "and appraisers themselves said geo competence is not needed.

While this eloquent tap dancing of language is an impressive skill, appraisers need to recognize what it means and where your earnest responses, given in the spirit this was an academic discussion /theoretical poll, can lead.

 

[George Hatch]

GH-Now you're talking about the business of appraising, not how to appraise.

The business of appraising does become how to appraise , unless one wants to go out of business. if clients/users allow bifurcated appraisals, that is how those properties will be appraised, and if clients/users allow any appraiser from a desktop to appraiser anywhere USA , that will be how those properties are appraised.

So what? Who cares what's important to appraisers? I mean, other than appraisers?

The more risks the lenders undertake in their respective choices the more responsibility they bear for the results of those decisions. That's basic, so if the argument being made is based on "increased liability" then that argument is being made on the fact-free basis. If the lenders make dumb decisions that have poor results they'll be reigned in by either their own competitors in the market and/or by their regulators. In neither case will our interests be a consideration.

This business doesn't exist to serve our economic interests. We thrive or die based on our ability to function in the market as it actually exists, not how we want it to exist. Myself included.

 

[J Grant]

I didn't think that people were unaware of how long Danny Wiley and I have known each other or how closely we agree on most things related to USPAP.

If you're asking whether Danny and I have discussed a myriad of appraisal issues with each other on a regular basis over the last 15 years, the answer is "yes". We generally talk with each other once or twice a month, almost enirely about USPAP stuff. If you're asking whether or not Danny's approach to these concepts and principles have resonated with me since the first and only time we met in person in Los Angeles when I attended the first AQB USPAP Instructor course - which he was teaching - the answer to that question is "Yes", too.

But if you think that our relationship has only recently been of effect on my perspectives then you're dead wrong. I would never have passed the USPAP Instructor Course had I not understood what he was saying up there behind the podium; I would never have brought those perspectives and explanations to this forum and promulgated them on the consistent basis for all these years since then had I not been a true believer. And whatever people's perceptions of my current understanding is I also wouldn't have accrued THAT reputation if not for agreeing with how the abstracts connect to the specifics of what we do every day.

Blah blah blah, I didn't inhale- appraisers , just remember where a number of discussions here on the board led to or how your responses can be read by anonymous viewers and appropriated for use outside of what you intended. Whether the topic is fees, with appraisers earnestly believing in the free market ending up defending low fees, or about education, and now about geo competency .

I don't question DWiley's or G Hatches competence, they are both from what I gather excellent appraisers I never asked if they knew each other or talked ( thanks for volunteering the info),

I can recognize they each, perhaps in sincere belief and independent of each other, display a mindset and post (eloquently) in defense of lower fees, minimum standards a rationale for what can be marginal practices, and an agenda to reduce education / training and now the new threshold is geo competence.

 

[George Hatch]

Who/what either Danny or I are is no more relevant to the question than who you are.

To remind people; the question being asked is what the individual thinks they are capable of. I didn't ask what is best for the individual's personal interests, what's best for the business or what's best for the lenders.

I think those other questions are very valid topics to discuss and worthy of very serious consideration, but I also think they should be discussed on their own merits. Not cloaked in some plausibly deniable fiction that the primary concern is anything other than our economic interests.

 

[J Grant]

So what? Who cares what's important to appraisers? I mean, other than appraisers?

The AQB has to at least provide some basis that appraisers themselves believe X before they change Y to X- otherwise there would not be a comment period

The more risks the lenders undertake in their respective choices the more responsibility they bear for the results of those decisions. That's basic, so if the argument being made is based on "increased liability" then that argument is being made on the fact-free basis. If the lenders make dumb decisions that have poor results they'll be reigned in by either their own competitors in the market and/or by their regulators. In neither case will our interests be a consideration.

GSE entities pass the risk on to taxpayers, but that is on them, not on us. We are just the collateral damage if it goes south.

This business doesn't exist to serve our economic interests. We thrive or die based on our ability to function in the market as it actually exists, not how we want it to exist. Myself included.

IF the business uses appraisers in whole or in part, what the market consists of does depend to some degree on what appraisers consent to- and what appraisers consent to can be manipulated or influenced, unfortnately.

I do retain a core of optimism however; there are a number of aware and ethical appraisers, as well as lenders ( and even some ethical AMC's ) that serve as a counter balance to those less so...and there are those in govt at state or local, or if we are lucky, national level with concern for citizens and consumers,;hard as it might be for them to get legislation passed or enforced - it does happen.

 

[Terrel L. Shields]

It's either hubris or you guys don't think micro level factors that impact value are not important.

Not rocket surgery...How many homes have been appraised as "fee simple" when, in fact, mineral rights were severed decades ago. No mention. There are appraisers living in houses who don't realize they don't own the minerals under their own house. Incompetent? Maybe.

a obvious outlier type of property that a person unfamiliar with the area would know to

There are ppl who specialize in those kinds of properties, most likely out of the area, and far more competent than any local appraiser because the market isn't the local area, it is a far greater area.

Locally, an appraiser neglected to mention a RR easement on our property than was abandoned in WWI. Wasn't any mention of it. So "locals" don't always know "local' history. So? It made zero impact on value. A careful out of state person would have caught that in the deed description, which the local failed to read. What damage was done? I was the only family member to pick up on the absence of a comment on the easement so, so much for public trust. The description was available on line so it is no excuse that it wasn't readily available.

 

[J Grant]

There are ppl who specialize in those kinds of properties, most likely out of the area, and far more competent than any local appraiser because the market isn't the local area, it is a far greater area.

That is its own form of "geo competency," since the competency in those cases encompass a wide area and centers around the property type rather than location....it does not pertain to the typical residential assignment, which is what the topic of poll specifically said the property to be.

 

[Joe Flacco]

Who/what either Danny or I are is no more relevant to the question than who you are.

To remind people; the question being asked is what the individual thinks they are capable of. I didn't ask what is best for the individual's personal interests, what's best for the business or what's best for the lenders.

I think those other questions are very valid topics to discuss and worthy of very serious consideration, but I also think they should be discussed on their own merits. Not cloaked in some plausibly deniable fiction that the primary concern is anything other than our economic interests.

Your argument on this topic is basically the same as the argument for the college degree topic. For both you think the other side of the argument is economic interests. It is ridiculous. Your argument for both is that "it is possible". It is possible to become a competent appraiser at least for few. It is possible to become geocompetent as long as there are no limitations. No limitations is not reality. The policies based on this line of thinking is flawed because success is not possible when rolled out across all appraisers. The main criteria for these types of decisions needs to be if it is good for public trust which in turn is good for appraisal. You guys make fun of Eli but he is probably one of the few people that actually get it. Nobody gives a damn about public trust. Especially those at the top. Pathetic and sad.

 

[TC]

I'm certified to appraise in Pennsylvania, not just a 5 mile radius of what some stupid aamc requires.