• Welcome to AppraisersForum.com, the premier online  community for the discussion of real estate appraisal. Register a free account to be able to post and unlock additional forums and features.

Forum Sponsor - a la mode

QuickSource provides a single-source solution to easily import, compare, and manage data from multiple, credible sources in every report. See what the next game-changer is really all about.

Windows Tablets For Fieldwork

Chris,

The main items which distinguish the P40 from the 460 are the NVIDIA Quadro graphics card and a higher performance screen with respect to color gamut etc. and optionally higher resolution. Unless you need a dedicated graphics card the 460 may be the better buy... (?) There are a (very) few other, mostly esoteric, differences, but both machines are workstation class which use the Wacom AES pens. I recommend getting the optional +$40 "pro" pen for your shirt pocket and leave the smaller one in the silo as a back-up... I also tend to favor the silver color option on the 460. All that said, I am still not a fan of the 16:9 screen in either device. For my money, the Surface Book has the vastly superior screen - the aspect ratio is simply superior for real work IMHO and worth the extra money IMHO. To match price, however, you'd have to get an i5 model on sale. If you absolutely need the beefiest version with Core i7, newly upgraded GPU, etc,, you'd pay about twice the price of a Core i7 Lenovo. As you know, I still recommend a Core i5 anyway, max RAM and only the dedicated GPU if you are running something that actually uses it - otherwise, you are wasting money and battery life, along with a (very) slight increase in weight. I would at lease consider getting yourself the Surface Book and passing down your P40. Otherwise, I recommend the 460 as the better buy. Of course, you are well positioned to make your own decision based on your well rounded background & experience, so I am just offering a free opinion ;-)

Hope this helps! Let me know if you want/need additional info! As always, I am interested in what you end up doing and why... :-)


-Randall Garrett-
+Apex Software+

/end/
 
Chris,

The main items which distinguish the P40 from the 460 are the NVIDIA Quadro graphics card and a higher performance screen with respect to color gamut etc. and optionally higher resolution. Unless you need a dedicated graphics card the 460 may be the better buy... (?) There are a (very) few other, mostly esoteric, differences, but both machines are workstation class which use the Wacom AES pens. I recommend getting the optional +$40 "pro" pen for your shirt pocket and leave the smaller one in the silo as a back-up... I also tend to favor the silver color option on the 460. All that said, I am still not a fan of the 16:9 screen in either device. For my money, the Surface Book has the vastly superior screen - the aspect ratio is simply superior for real work IMHO and worth the extra money IMHO. To match price, however, you'd have to get an i5 model on sale. If you absolutely need the beefiest version with Core i7, newly upgraded GPU, etc,, you'd pay about twice the price of a Core i7 Lenovo. As you know, I still recommend a Core i5 anyway, max RAM and only the dedicated GPU if you are running something that actually uses it - otherwise, you are wasting money and battery life, along with a (very) slight increase in weight. I would at lease consider getting yourself the Surface Book and passing down your P40. Otherwise, I recommend the 460 as the better buy. Of course, you are well positioned to make your own decision based on your well rounded background & experience, so I am just offering a free opinion ;-)

Hope this helps! Let me know if you want/need additional info! As always, I am interested in what you end up doing and why... :)


-Randall Garrett-
+Apex Software+

/end/


Wow.. As always, thanks. Lots to take in. Firs., I do like the silver 460, however, Lenovo is not offering that unit with the anti-glare screen, which is something I use consistently. Have you seen a big difference in the screens between the two? glossy, versus anti-glare? Or is the glare screen now good enough to just put an anti-glare screen protector on to match the anti-glare screen?>This brings me to my next issue. Is the surface book screen usable in direct sunlight outdoors? Is the surface book as robust as the Thinkpad, splash proof keyboard? etc.? Is the warranty as good? I am not opposed to the surface book and am with you on screen aspect ratio, but previously there were significant trade-offs to the surface book in most of those areas. What is your experience? Thanks you Chris Wagoner
 
Chris,

The main items which distinguish the P40 from the 460 are the NVIDIA Quadro graphics card and a higher performance screen with respect to color gamut etc. and optionally higher resolution. Unless you need a dedicated graphics card the 460 may be the better buy... (?) There are a (very) few other, mostly esoteric, differences, but both machines are workstation class which use the Wacom AES pens. I recommend getting the optional +$40 "pro" pen for your shirt pocket and leave the smaller one in the silo as a back-up... I also tend to favor the silver color option on the 460. All that said, I am still not a fan of the 16:9 screen in either device. For my money, the Surface Book has the vastly superior screen - the aspect ratio is simply superior for real work IMHO and worth the extra money IMHO. To match price, however, you'd have to get an i5 model on sale. If you absolutely need the beefiest version with Core i7, newly upgraded GPU, etc,, you'd pay about twice the price of a Core i7 Lenovo. As you know, I still recommend a Core i5 anyway, max RAM and only the dedicated GPU if you are running something that actually uses it - otherwise, you are wasting money and battery life, along with a (very) slight increase in weight. I would at lease consider getting yourself the Surface Book and passing down your P40. Otherwise, I recommend the 460 as the better buy. Of course, you are well positioned to make your own decision based on your well rounded background & experience, so I am just offering a free opinion ;-)

Hope this helps! Let me know if you want/need additional info! As always, I am interested in what you end up doing and why... :)


-Randall Garrett-
+Apex Software+

/end/


oh, and what are they taking about when they state peformance based on the surface book?
 
Hi Chris,

(Had to split this into multiple posts, LOL)

Great points/questions, as usual. I'm glad to see how obvious it is that you actually use your tablets in the field. By that, I mean that I can tell because of the type of questions you ask - i.e. concerns that come from the experience of real world usage... OK, I'm just rattling this stuff off without "composing" a proper response. I may (ahem) wander a bit (big surprise, huh?) ;-)

I have no longer see an anti-reflective screen option either the P40 or Y460 models - they are apparently all glossy now :-( I just tried going to their site to double check, but the site seems to be having an issue "drilling down" to specific ThinkPad models. Maybe they are doing site maintenance ATM... (?) With respect to seeing a difference, you can tell a difference in the color depth between the two FHD (1920 x 1080) screens, but seriously, that is not a factor (for me) when doing field or even regular desktop-oriented appraisal stuff - it is really just important to people who are sensitive to the higher accuracy in actual colors... Artists, photographers, etc. For most of us boring valuation types (LOL), we would probably only notice it is the two were put side by side and then someone pointed it out... Realizing that, once someone does point it out, someone who seeks quality (like you) may have a hard time going with the lower color gamut screen, despite the fact that it is probably actually better than their regular screen, LOL. All in all, color accuracy is of dubious value to most office workers and I would argue that it is really a silly thing to worry about in the field where the ambient lighting conditions wreak havoc on that sort of thing anyway... Heck, the built-in anti-reflective treatment on your existing screen technically lowers the screen accuracy with respect to color gamut, accuracy, etc., yet that is the very thing you find so useful. BTW, I know you already know this, so I am not admonishing you - just pointing it out for other readers. I am known for "ranting" on this type of thing, so if you have something based on your actual usage, feel free to comment (pro or con) since you'd probably say it better anyway. At the end of the day, all that matters to most is getting the best performance for the buck...

Oh, and there it is - I used the word "performance" again. In this context, I am not talking about raw computational things - I mean it with respect to how well the screen performs in difficult lighting conditions (i.e. with typical outdoor lighting challenges.) As you know, glossy screens look sharper to most people's eyes, but the reflections are a problem. Reflections are bad enough in a "static" environment like an office, but outdoors the backgrounds, lighting intensities, etc. are constantly changing, so it is usually a major factor is how usable the device is. Also, when I mentioned the Surface Book screen, I meant that the 3:2 (comparatively 15:10) aspect ratio of the MS Surface devices allows you to be more productive when compared to the "vertically challenged" 16:9 aspect ratio on the P40, Y460 and all others like it. I'm sure that you know what I mean, but you really have to load your own apps on both and use them side-by-side for a little bit to see just what a difference it makes in real world scenarios. The only downside is watching video, etc. which is optimized for 16:9... For MY money, I can easily justify the expense based on productivity gains, but YMMV, of course.

So, what this means that you will probably want to just get a good quality screen protector film which addressed reflectivity. Most people find that a "matte" type film works best for them. Some people feel that a matte type screen protector makes their screen fuzzy, but FWIW, the good ones pretty much look like the treatment on your P40 now. In fact, technically, they are a little better since the reflections are dispersed at the surface instead of behind the protective glass layer on your device. Poor quality matte screen protectors can impart a "screen door" effect on a high-resolution screen, but FWIW, I am using a 5 - 10-year-old (albeit high quality) matte screen protector on my high-resolution phone and it has a MUCH higher DPI than any commercially available desktop or laptop screen, and it preforms wonderfully. In fact, people ask me all the time "What phone IS that?" I think it is because of the screen since my phone is in a nondescript black carbon fiber case - hence it is essentially just a boring black slab... The only distinguishing characteristic is the low reflectivity screen via the matte screen protector film I have applied. For those who just cannot bear to use a matte style screen protector, the best choice is an anti-glare type, which still looks "crisp" but addresses the glare factor. The effect is more subtle - to the extent that most don't think the company shipped them the right product. This type affects glare, not reflections, though it does diminish them somewhat... YMMV on this topic, but for my money, I go with a high quality matte style first.

That said, since you use a pen (yea!), a matte style screen protector is slightly more abrasive on pens if you use soft nibs designed for smoother glass. Unless you are using it like an artist "colors", this will not affect you in a major way - i.e. causing you to spend a lot on replacement nibs. You'd just want to switch to a slightly "harder" nib. The difference in feel is usually a positive experience since it feels more like writing with a pencil or "ink pen" on paper vs. a rollerball on wax paper or glass... Most business class devices today have high performance screens with respect to the pertinent factors which affect work conditions you and most appraisers face today. This includes the devices we are discussing today - both ThinkPads and the Surface devices. In order to more effectively combat outdoor lighting, you want to have adequate brightness (of course) but once you approach approximately 400 nits there, the contrast ratio becomes the dominant factor. It is already an established “fact” that the Surface devices have a superior screen when the regular factors are compared – they routinely outperform almost every other device in their category. Still none of that matters if you can’t see it in the sun, right? I won’t bore you with all the technicalities behind this, but FWIW, most people can use a Surface device in their regular working conditions due to the way the screen is made. Even many appraisers can use them… But, I still recommend a matte screen protector for almost everybody – and you in particular because of what you are already used to. You have higher expectations because you have been using devices with a matte treatment for years, where most have not.

So, I would suggest that the best test for you would be to directly compare a Surface (SP4 or SB) to a Lenovo P40 or Y460. You would, of course, want to have your own P40 handy for comparison, but the main thing is to compare how the screens look between the “combatants” of your test. Once a matte screen protector is applied, you will likely find that the Surface device is superior to your existing P40. A newer P40 or Y460 with matte screen protector will probably be comparable to your existing device, maybe even a little better (?)…


----- more -----
 
----- continued -----

The Surface devices are business class devices and are robust. In fact, they are probably less prone to bumps, drops, etc. since they do not house the “guts” in a levered format. They are all air-cooled, which means they have fans which can suck dirty air inside and small passageways can become clogged, but this is no different than your existing device. First, in “tablet mode”, they are considerably more compact and substantially lighter than either the P40 or Y460, and that obviously affects things. Additionally (and perhaps more importantly?), I believe that since you can find “bump case” type accessories for the Surface devices, one could argue that they are actually able to be less prone to damage in “real world” working conditions, too! All of these device fall into the “ULV mobile” category with respect to the CPU, so there is not a big difference in their raw compute numbers. The all should be using similar storage subsystems. The P40 and some Y460 versions can be had with dedicated GPUs but the “regular” Y460 and Surface Pro’s just use the latest mobile GPU systems from Intel. IF you want/need more performance in the graphics department (CAD and/or game, not regular stuff), you’d need to go to with a P40 or a Surface Book with the optional base containing a dedicated GPU. I don’t think you’d need to go with the newly released “Surface Book with Performance Base”… Once you step up to a Surface Book with a Core i7, all current offers include the dedicated GPU, so you’d have to step down to a Core i5 to get regular built-in graphics. Norte that even if you got one with a dedicated GPU, it is only hooked up when the tablet section is mated to the keyboard base. You’d presumably detach the table section while traversing the subject property and do your “heavy lifting” while seated at a desk/table, standing at a counter top, etc. Anyway, the regular SB ranges from $1,299 (Core i5, 8GB, 128GB) to $2,999 (Core i7, 16GB, 1TB) whereas the new “Performance Base models range from $2,399 to $3,299. Links below for comparison:


Of course, the regular Surface Pro may be more than adequate for your needs (?) It is a pretty powerful device for the size/weight. It has the flexible keyboard cover, so the typing experience is not as nice as a ThinkPad or Surface Book, but honestly, it is really pretty good once you get used to it – especially when you consider the portability. Additionally, you’d likely pair it to a “real” keyboard once you got to a desk anyway… (I always recommend the Surface Dock, regardless of SP4 or SB, but it is more important for the SP4.) BTW, the preconfigured SP4s range from $649 to $1,599, but knowing you, the Core i7 models are where you would be looking, LOL. Those go from $1,399 to $1,599 but you can configure them with more goodies (storage of 512 GB or 1 TB.) I recommend the pre-configured devices and still feel that most get more bang for their buck by going with a Core i5 and more RAM… YMMV

The SP4 has a 12.3” screen – certainly smaller than the 14" P40 or Y460 but I would argue that the 3:2 aspect ratio alone makes it just as effective/productive, and of course the device itself is much smaller/lighter than the Lenovo offerings in play here. The SB when attached to the base is comparable to either Lenovo, but of course, you can detach the screen when appropriate and that is a huge thing for many field inspector types. (OK, it is really cool, too, LOL) The SB screen is 13.5” and while it is still smaller than the 14" Lenovo screens, I would strongly argue that the 3:2 aspect ratio makes it more productive for the type of work we do. Strangely, the 13.3" SB "tablet" section actually feels lighter than the smaller SP4!


As always, I heartily recommend the accidental drop protection option, and if you go with an SPO4, the “Signature” Type Cover is really nice :) but the regular ones are functionally equivalent.


OK, I’ve probably gone into more detail than you wanted and perhaps lost everyone else, LOL. Still, I hope that this is of some use to you, even if all it does is get you to consider more options. In the end, I am confident you’ll make the best decision based on your own needs. As always, I look forward to learning more from your experiences! Let me know if you want me to PM you with any specific details vs. posting it here.


Regards,



-Randall Garrett-
+Apex Software+
/end/
 
Last edited:
great info as always... When I pull up Lenovo's site, I get three possible units that are customizable for the p40 yoga. The first package explains the screen like this

"14.1” FHD (1920 x 1080) IPS Anti-Glare Touch, 720p HD camera"

and the second and third are these "14.1” WQHD (2560 x 1440) IPS Glossy Touch, 720p HD camera" .
When I purchased mine back earlier in the year, the explanation was similar I believe.
The Yoga 460 shows "14.1” FHD (1920 x 1080) IPS Glossy Touch, 720p HD camera" and further defines it as the main difference being color and having the availability of only the glossy screen. The black has this screen "14.1” FHD (1920 x 1080) IPS Anti-Glare Touch, 720p HD camera" Seems strange that they would not offer both on both colors, but this their statement at the time on their site.

All of this to ask the question, It appears that none of this really matters in real world use?
1. Your take is that as you have done side by side comparisons, the surface book still has a superior screen for valuation purposes and will work just fine outdoors in direct sunlight or at least as well as the P40 screen I now have as long as I would apply a matte style screen protector?
2. and that the 3:2 ratio makes the screen even better? ( which i agree with fully)

Do I need to purchase a surface nook directly from ms store with warranty, or are the amazon sellers with warranties similar? The prices are better on Amazon which makes me wonder?
Thanks, Chris Wagoner
 
Hi Chris,

Great questions, and thanks for the updated info on the Lenovo models. My apologies for not already knowing that there still is an anti-glare/anti-reflective option available. I still don't know why I couldn't get to their site yesterday... FWIW, I believe that a FHD screen is perfectly adequate on a 14" device of this type and if it were me, I would prefer the lower reflectiveness over the higher resolution. Like you, I'd prefer the "silver" finish over the matte black, just because it is less susceptible to fingerprints, smudges, etc., but of course that is of less importance than the overall performance and suitability to the task at hand...

As for the glossy screen comparison, yes - I believe that the Surface Pro 4 and Surface Book's 3:2 aspect ratio and overall performance is superior to the Lenovo screens in play here. I am such a proponent of anti-reflective screens in general (and more so for outdoor work!), I would have a hard time deciding between the superior 3:2 aspect ratio of the Surface devices and the semi-matte screen available on the Lenovo, Since there are good quality anti-reflective screen protectors available and they are relatively easy to install, I would give the nod to the Surface screens. For overall inspection convenience factors, I might even prefer the Surface Pro 4 to the Lenovo due to size/weight, availability of "bump case" type accessories, etc. You would want to really think about your size preference when it comes to making the decision between SP4 and SB. Of course, the SB screen is bigger (12.3" vs. 13.5") and so the extra screen real estate is handy for us folks with older eyes ;-) But then, there is the price difference...

Unless you need the optional NVIDIA GPU, the SP4 simply offers more compute and built-in graphics horsepower for the buck. I find that the Type Cover keyboard to be more than adequate for mobile purposes, but of course the Surface Book keyboard is superior for regular keyboard duty, and it actually compares favorably to the modern Lenovo keyboards... Well, except for the arrow keys - Lenovo seems to be the only ones who know how to incorporate larger arrow keys - "everyone else" does that silly "scrunched up combo :-(

One other thing to consider is that most people who follow this sort of thing anticipate is new Surface models being introduced in Q2, 2017. These are anticipated to have newer CPU/GPU combinations. Then they introduced the SP4 and SB, MS was (uncharacteristically) one of the very first to offer devices with the Intel "Skylake" CPU/GPU combinations and it took a while before that combo was really battle tested - they had numerous issues with standby/sleep, dock/undock and a host of other (mainly) "convenience" items. Of course, the press had a field day with that, but today, things are pretty much rock solid. The issues seem to be almost purely Intel-related (vs. Microsoft) but still, MS was an early adopter on a new series and both they and us paid the price early on. I do not expect to see such a problem happen with the next gen release! In any case, as usual, when new generations come out, pricing for the older ones will likely be better, so can you wait?

Also, is there any way you can go see these devices in person? I think that is important...

Let me know how you want to continue this conversation. Maybe I got off track???


Regards,


-Randall Garrett-
+Apex Software+

/end/
 
At this point, the 14' screen is a sweet spot for me. i struggled with the 11-12" screens on my older Lenovos. I am willing to go slightly smaller to utilize 3:2, but not much. I thought it would be still too small when I purchased, but found that it is a good sweet spot between the field unit and laptop. I always dream I could have a 17-19" travel unit workhorse, but would get me too far away from simple mobility with the maintenance of multiple devices. I still struggle a little with the 14: screen using it as a laptop when traveling.
I was looking around a little, and was wondering if you could recommend a good screen protector ( so i don't get one with poor quality), bump case for field use? There seem to be few for any of these devices. I had to make one for my P40. I noticed as well that MS does not offer a car charger option on the website? Why is this? Why would they not offer a good quality mobile charger for a good quality businesses class device? Amazon has then or $20? Can you recommend any you have used or dealt with?
I have played the waiting game on most devices, but for this year am looking for the tax help. So going to pull the trigger here soon. I live in a fairly rural area with the closest cities being an hour away and even those cities are not tech savvy places. Rarely would I find any of the mentioned devices in a store. I will be in Chicago in the near future, and am going to try and find a store there. No, not off track at all. great invaluable info. Thanks for your expertise> Chris Wagoner
 
Windows 10 tablet I've been searching for needs the following:
- rear camera with flash
- 12"+ screen with HD or higher resolution
- outdoor readable (high brightness, anti-glare, or whatever other magic)
- available rugged case with hand strap

Anyone got something that matches?

Lenovo Miix 700 - not too sure about the 300 nits brightness. Went searching for a case with a hand strap and didn't find any built for it.

HP Elite X2 1012 - not sure about 315 nits brightness. 11.6" screen - does have a case with strap - reviews say the camera's autofocus is slow

Thinkpad X1 Tablet - not sure about 335 nits - can't seem to find a decent case with hand strap


Really wish the MS Surface Pro had a camera flash.
 
Last edited:
Hi graindart,

Thanks for writing in!

Unfortunately, right off the top of my head, I don't know of any tablets that meet all of those specs, but I'll see what I can find (if anything.)
One of my former recommendations for folks here, the TPT2 had all that, but it was a 10.1" device and is considered to be "long in the tooth" these days.
I'm not sure about the X2's camera, either - I'd have to find and break one out again to see about that. Do you have a link where you read about its poor performance? I'd like to read up on that so that I'll be better informed..
I've not found a tablet with a camera that makes really stunning photos. Kind of like early cell phones, they aren't the best - and even the best of cell cameras struggle with scenes with strong backlighting - i.e. shooting an unlit room toward a window with the sun streaming in. The "flash" in these type devices is (with very rare exception), just a tuned LED and you'd not really expect it to perform like a real flash. Heck, even point and shoot cameras really struggle with things like that with their arguably vastly superior flashes...
FWIW, at the request of a few specific Enterprise type customers, I am investigating a couple of low cost "remote LED flash units" designed to augment/replace the flash on certain cell phones and to see what it would take to make them work with the customers' Surface Pro 4's... I'll make a post here in this thread if/when I have something successful to report.

Regards,

-Randall Garrett-
+Apex Software+

/end/
 
Find a Real Estate Appraiser - Enter Zip Code

Copyright © 2000-, AppraisersForum.com, All Rights Reserved
AppraisersForum.com is proudly hosted by the folks at
AppraiserSites.com
Back
Top