Are we required to obtain permits?

[Tim The Enchanter]

I will see what I can see online, no problem, takes 2 minutes or maybe 5.
I've gone to Building and Safety I think twice in 21 years. Both times on oddball properties. Once I was staff, and my manager said go. I was an employee, so I went. The other time I thought the owner was trying to mislead me on status with the City, and wanted to see what was the latest since he had given me 3-4 year old documents. Bottom line, he was lying like a rug. So, it was worth the trip.

Short story long, it's typically not my yob, mon.

 

[Fnbpos]

If you want to be the permit police then dont be surprised to one day to be sued by a homeowner because YOU called down to the town zoning department and opened up a "can of worms" that will never be closed....

..not only that, but you are discussing confidential information about the subject property with someone (the town) who is not your client.

You ARE not, and SHOULD not be the permit police. But, if you are...good luck with that...its beyond your scope, why put yourself in the crosshair ???

 

[Terrel L. Shields]

I guess appraisers ARE permit police...

In our area there are only a few municpalities that have permits and most of them are exceedingly lax about enforcement and 99% of them couldn't tell you whether or not it was.

It is a legal matter. You have no responsibility for legal matters. Your certification and Fannie mae's states that explicitly. You do not have to dig for it. Its the lenders responsibility to disclose

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The appraisal must include a statement that the subject property presents a legal, confirming; legal, non-conforming (grandfathered) use; or an illegal use under the zoning regulations; or whether there is no local zoning.​

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The lender is supposed to

require that either the borrower or the contractor obtain (and keep in force) all work permits

..and that applies to new construction.

I don't see it the responsibility to determine compliance and I would not do it.​

 

[Lee Lansford]

I have seen a few similar posts but nothing of concrete answer.
I had recently completed an appraisal on a home that had a professionally finished basement. The 'badger-you-to-death AMC' has come back now asking for me to obtain and provide copies of the permit(s). I have been told by many of my peers as well as the gentleman I trained with that we are not trained in this area and it is not part of our scope of work to become the permit police, etc. I just want to see what is accurate before I decide how to respond to the AMC and/or how to accurately handle the situation. Is it our responsibility as appraisers to obtain permits?
Thanks in advance for any assistance.

You will receive various responses depending upon a few variables, the most important of which is whether or not the ("permit or not permit") issue is a matter of significance in a particular locale.

In some jurisdictions, whether an improvement was permitted or not weighs heavily. If an item was not permitted, the governing body may force the improvements to be removed and/or have fines imposed. In other areas, the issue is not a matter of measurable consequence.

 

[Tim The Enchanter]

My City requires permits for little things like changing a light or plumbing fixture. They rarely enforce things like added on rooms, or garage conversions w/o permit. There's no wonder why the majority (guessing) of people say,

We don't need no stinking permits?

Let the owner produce them.

 

[hastalavista]

If you want to be the permit police then dont be surprised to one day to be sued by a homeowner because YOU called down to the town zoning department and opened up a "can of worms" that will never be closed....

I've asked repeatedly, to many forumites who describe the potential you describe, if they are aware of any situations where that has actually happened?
None have been able to cite a case.
I don't think I've asked you before, so I'll ask: do you know of a case where an appraiser was sued by a homeowner for researching property information with a public agency/jurisdiction?

You may be right in your risk-assessment (I don't share it to the same degree, but that doesn't mean it couldn't happen).
But if you have a case you can cite where an appraiser has actually been sued for what you describe, that would be great. I'd change my position in a heartbeat, and would be grateful for the confirmation.

Thanks

 

[Scott R Marshall]

If you want to be the permit police then dont be surprised to one day to be sued by a homeowner because YOU called down to the town zoning department and opened up a "can of worms" that will never be closed....

..not only that, but you are discussing confidential information about the subject property with someone (the town) who is not your client.

First I am not certain calling to verify permits is "confidential" information. If that were the case, I could talk to no one, not even the homeowner to get information regarding the property I am appraising.

Having said that, I typically tell the homeowner the situation if I have a client requesting I do such a thing. Now that may breach confidentiality on behalf of my client by telling the owner what I have been asked to do and if they are comfortable with that.

I agree, I do not want to open up the can of worms which is why I give the homeowner the heads-up that it is exactly what their lender may wind up having me do. I've at times placed that responsibility on the owner so they could word it however they wanted to with the local municipality to potentially avoid getting in trouble, letting them know beforehand that even if they get an answer they are comfortable with I cannot just take their word for it but have to make that phone call myself and I may not use as much tact as they did in getting to the bottom of things. I've also walked away from a few assignments for no other reason than the client wanted me to open up the can but the homeowner was against me even holding the can.

It's ultimately both an assignment condition and based on what your market expects. Out here, no one really cares about permits. Buyers buy unpermitted additions/conversions all the time and pay the same as if it was permitted, assuming its built professionally. And currently the local municipalities I appraise in have not gone after the "violaters" of the building code. But if the client require it and you accept thaguideline, you've married yourself to it if you complete that assignment. And if the municipality is Gestapo-like in enforcing permits, you may wind up getting in just as much trouble, if not more, for not reporting it because you're afraid of worms.

 

[Mountain Man]

Scope of Work. If you accept an assignment with a SOW that includes verify permits of all additions, look in the mice type, you should do so. If it's not in the SOW, there's an additional charge for more work. I charge by the hour including travel time.

 

[incognito]

I have a different view. If it is ABUNDANTLY apparent that an addition is not permitted, I believe we are obligated to report that. In my area, the county property appraiser site shows all permitted areas online. Additionally, all permit information is readilly available online. If I go to a property and see that it has an 800 sq.ft. addition, which is clearly contributing to the PRICE of the property, but CLEARLY does not appear in the County Records, it raises a major red flag.

Technically, it is an ILELGAL, NON CONFORMING USE, and is NOT the HBU as improved (an illegal use cannot be HBU). In my area, the County can, and WILL require that unpermitted additions either be retro permitted (and brought to code), or removed. My County does an onsite inspection of every property once every 3 years, and does discover these things.

So If I include an unpermitted addition in value on an appraisal, AND a mortgage company lends on the property, based on the contributory value of that (presumably legal) addition, AND the County finds it and requires its removal, guess whose door the mortgage company will come knocking on! ME (the one with E&O).

I make any appraisal I complete where there is apparent, readilly obvious evidence of unpermitted additions or renovations subject to retro permitting, or provision of evidence that such addition meets applicable code at the time of the addition/renovation. Let the mortgage company deal with it from there!

 

[Mike Kennedy]

1&2 is allowed in the Township and per zoning. Common to the market area.
3- not sure as of yet. waiting to hear back from the homeowner.
4- yes 1004/UAD compliant

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Krystal - which Township?