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does no appraiser seem to understand the basic mechanics of supply and demand? D
Not to quarrel with your assessment otherwise, but supply and demand is not a lead pipe cinch in anything. I learned that in economics too.

During the 90s we had ups and downs then the dotcom bubble. But FEES never changed then, only volume. The VALUE of our service remained the same. Further we are beholden to the masters in the finance sector, which was the only reason to license appraisers in the first place. Thus regulation often controls this "supply/demand" by fiat and banks and Realtors have more political clout. The appraisal community of 1989 was thrilled at the prospect of licensing thinking we'd be seen as "more professional" and "make more money".

@Eli is onto something when he argues that controls exist... Walmart and Amazon does not pay vendors so much upon the basis of demand but upon monopolizing their spaces. You know play ball with us or we cram the bat up your ***. When the consumer benefits and votes, then the gov will grease those skids.

The reduced amount of mortgage work should only mean you get fewer assignments, not lower fees. After all, if reduced demand was all that drove down prices, MLS fees, software costs, data costs, etc. would fall too. And they haven't here.
 
Not to quarrel with your assessment otherwise, but supply and demand is not a lead pipe cinch in anything. I learned that in economics too.

During the 90s we had ups and downs then the dotcom bubble. But FEES never changed then, only volume. The VALUE of our service remained the same. Further we are beholden to the masters in the finance sector, which was the only reason to license appraisers in the first place. Thus regulation often controls this "supply/demand" by fiat and banks and Realtors have more political clout. The appraisal community of 1989 was thrilled at the prospect of licensing thinking we'd be seen as "more professional" and "make more money".

@Eli is onto something when he argues that controls exist... Walmart and Amazon does not pay vendors so much upon the basis of demand but upon monopolizing their spaces. You know play ball with us or we cram the bat up your ***. When the consumer benefits and votes, then the gov will grease those skids.

The reduced amount of mortgage work should only mean you get fewer assignments, not lower fees. After all, if reduced demand was all that drove down prices, MLS fees, software costs, data costs, etc. would fall too. And they haven't here.


Duh, I’m telling you to look for new legislation. Louisiana and some other states and state coalitions and the FTC are fixin to tear a new tail hole. Watch your invoices carefully.
 
Not to quarrel with your assessment otherwise, but supply and demand is not a lead pipe cinch in anything. I learned that in economics too.

During the 90s we had ups and downs then the dotcom bubble. But FEES never changed then, only volume. The VALUE of our service remained the same. Further we are beholden to the masters in the finance sector, which was the only reason to license appraisers in the first place. Thus regulation often controls this "supply/demand" by fiat and banks and Realtors have more political clout. The appraisal community of 1989 was thrilled at the prospect of licensing thinking we'd be seen as "more professional" and "make more money".
The reduced amount of mortgage work should only mean you get fewer assignments, not lower fees. After all, if reduced demand was all that drove down prices, MLS fees, software costs, data costs, etc. would fall too. And they haven't here.

100% correct . Prior to HVCC which led to the AMC's controlling a large volume of res lending work, fees NEVER changed when when volume slowed down. It was never a numbers game with supply and demand, fees were C and R, as they are now to bororwer, only difference now is the AMC siphons off a large % of the $ with less reaching the appraiser. That and only that is he differential. Regarding supply of appraisers, their market share and profit stream agenda combine to put the AMC interest in fees in a different league than normal customers or clients in appraisal including lenders who do not use AMC;s

In res lending appraisal, When former hundreds of thousands of loan officers and mtge brokers ordering shrunk post HVCC to aprox several hundred channels of demand, ( AMC ordering) and simulations the AMC agenda to fee shop due to their business model, overnight we saw the impact It results in a special set of circumstances operating outside normal supply and demand. The only way S/D applies is the special set of circumstances/reduced ordering channels affords the AMC;s tremendous leverage over the supply of appraisers, whatever that supply may be, unless there is such a severe imbalance such as in the COW states.

The fact that some appraisers are blind to it, and then accuse other appraisers of not understanding supply and demand plays right into AMC interests. They love having appraisers fight among each other and cling to a myth about s/d as if some day it will balance out.

They should call any fee paid by an AMC a vendor fee rather than an Appraiser fee because 1) the two is often very different, compare what borrower paid, compare what direct lenders pay) and calling an AMC influenced fee an appraisal fee is wrong, they used vendor tactics to get it and there is a reason they call appraisers vendors and (mis) label them "vendor partners".
 
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That was the effect of a less efficient marketplace. The average mtg broker had maybe 5 appraisers to choose from in their rolodex. Whoever had cold-called them. Your AMC clients have 500 or more potential vendors for that unit of production. When it comes to them have alternatives, there's no comparison between the size of the groups the AMCs are working with vs what the individual mtg bkrs were working with.

Besides, the MBs didn't care what the fee was so long as you made value. That was the cliche back then:

"The average lifespan of an appraiser/client relationship is about 9 months, or $1500 of unfunded appraisal fees, whichever occurs first". Unfunded meaning they weren't able to do the deal for whatever reason.

Usually what would happen is on that last deal the bkr would go berserk, call you up and tell you that you made a huge error in your last report that was so bad they lost their client AND the lender realtionship, and you were costing them thousands of dollars of fees they had pending in that pipeline. So now you're done, and BTW we're keeping those outstanding appraisal fees to offset our losses.


People forget these things.
 
Gorge Hatch, post: 2861813, member: 66065"]That was the effect of a less efficient marketplace. The average mtg broker had maybe 5 appraisers to choose from in their rolodex. Whoever had cold-called them. Your AMC clients have 500 or re potential vendors for that unit of production. When it comes to them have alternatives, there's no comparison between the size of the groups the AMCs are working with vs what the individual mtg bkrs were working with.

How can you say it's about an "efficient market place", when it's not efficiency... mtge brokers then ( and direct order lenders now) do not care about fee as long as it is reasonable, because they DO NOT KEEP PART OF APPRAISAL FEE AS PROFIT.
Not a matter of 5 appraisers or 500 appraisers, there are nationwide direct lenders now ordering through Mercury and appraisal scope with 500 or more appraisers who pay good fees because they DO NOT KEEP PART OF APPRAISAL FEE AS PROFIT. And if a nationwide panel is 500 or 1000 appraisers, in an AMC , they are not all competing for an order, it;s regional ordering so maybe it is 5 appraisers, or 10 in the local area on their panel.

Besides, the MBs didn't care what the fee was so long as you made value. That was the cliche back then:

That was not true of all clients then either. Direct lenders now pay good fees and they are not value pushing, so how do you explain that? Are you honestly going to tell me you see zero connection between the fact that AMC;s and only AMC;s are paying low, and blast emailing and soliciting bids for stinky little res orders, is unrelated to the fact that the AMC incentive to pay low fees is because it's their profit stream?

Yes, it stank back then that some mtge brokers pushed for value. But excusing today's stinky AMC situation because something else was stinky then makes sense? Personally, overall, I think the low fee AMC situation by time it is done will have done more damage to the profession. Good appraisers survived the mtge broker years, but many are folding in the AMC years, because they can't compete against fast cheap crank em out and bifurcated trend will accelerate that. .

Usually what would happen is on that last deal the bkr would go berserk, call you up and tell you that you made a huge error in your last report that was so bad they lost their client AND the lender realtionship, and you were costing them thousands of dollars of fees they had pending in that pipeline. So now you're done, and BTW we're keeping those outstanding appraisal fees to offset our losses.

A stereotype. While the worst of the mtg brokers did that, we had choice whether to work for them or not and most were not that bad. There were direct lenders back then too and believe it or not, decent mtge brokers as well. I I never got stiffed on an appraisal invoice because of value. I got dropped by a few mortgage brokers back in the day but always found other work. I also got no more orders from some outfits (and so have other appraisers ) for "coming in low" post HVCC so it has not been a cure all.
 
the MBs didn't care what the fee was so long as you made value.
Some of us did zero work thru mortgage brokers. We worked directly for banks whose loan originators were paid on salary, not commission, and consistent loan losses cost them their bonus and often their jobs. It is called skin in the game. Here I doubt mortgage brokers made 10% of the loans from 1992 - 2005. Less after that. And today most of the loans are in regional banks, not the TBTF nor with mortgage brokers. Some of the internet companies are making inroads into this market but most all the sales I've used this year were financed locally. I can think of only one or two listing Quicken.
A stereotype.
Exactly
 
That was the effect of a less efficient marketplace. The average mtg broker had maybe 5 appraisers to choose from in their rolodex. Whoever had cold-called them. Your AMC clients have 500 or more potential vendors for that unit of production. When it comes to them have alternatives, there's no comparison between the size of the groups the AMCs are working with vs what the individual mtg bkrs were working with.

Besides, the MBs didn't care what the fee was so long as you made value. That was the cliche back then:

"The average lifespan of an appraiser/client relationship is about 9 months, or $1500 of unfunded appraisal fees, whichever occurs first". Unfunded meaning they weren't able to do the deal for whatever reason.

Usually what would happen is on that last deal the bkr would go berserk, call you up and tell you that you made a huge error in your last report that was so bad they lost their client AND the lender realtionship, and you were costing them thousands of dollars of fees they had pending in that pipeline. So now you're done, and BTW we're keeping those outstanding appraisal fees to offset our losses.


People forget these things.

I never had this happen where a mtg broker did not pay due to coming in low. It's a shame if that happened, but no more a shame than the AMC's that have gone BK owing thousands of invoices. The abuses of yesterday are hardly an excuse for the abuses of today.

The "old says" are over and nobody expects direct engagement to return, but the current model of AMC;s getting paid via the vendor is a disaster, The hundreds of millions of dollars in past decade leached from appraisers via reduced compensation makes a few unpaid invoices by rogue mortgage brokers pale in comparison.
 
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Not to quarrel with your assessment otherwise, but supply and demand is not a lead pipe cinch in anything. I learned that in economics too.

During the 90s we had ups and downs then the dotcom bubble. But FEES never changed then, only volume.

Do you think that is because all the banks suddenly turned altrustic? Or could it be because the appraisers themselves actually stood their ground? Certainly for every product or service, there is a different amount of time before prices start going up and down to reflect changing demand and supply curves. I think the lenders and appraisers had more of a business relationship than anyone cares to admit. Maybe lenders didn't want to lose that good appraiser that always buttered their bread. Perhaps they truly did value a good report back then and didn't want to risk losing a genuinely good appraiser. But those days are gone, mortgage appraisals have turned into a commodity, and must be analyzed as such, because the model does not seem to be going away. So the supply and demand functions I am speaking of only apply in a free market, where both suppliers and users of a particular product or service are FREE to enter and exit at relative will.

When the tubed TV starting getting replaced with flat screens, do you remember what happened to price of the older style TVs? Did they change in a day? No. It took time for each company, one by one, to realize that at their current prices, sales were decreasing, mostly due to the newer product, the flat screen. Some lowered prices for a while, hoping to sell what they could, perhaps just getting rid of inventory. As more and more realized they could not turn a profit anymore, they freely exited the market, perhaps to never be heard from again, or perhaps just reassigning the entire division to the production and marketing of flat screens. As fewer suppliers remained, there was again an equilibrium for a little while, as there was still some demand, and prices actually went up bit. But in the end, no one wanted the clunky ol tube TVs anymore. They went the way of the VCR, record, and 486 computer.

Today's appraisers have the same opportunity with regard to standing their ground. Demand will not decrease simply because appraisers start refusing to do 1004s for $250. It may in time, but that is coming anyway.

You and others speak of AMCs as the 800 pound gorilla, and that there is ONE market in this country for appraisals. This is just not the case. Look again at the COW states. Each market in this country that is somehow separable by a level of geographic competency tends to be its own unique market. There is blending at the edges of course, but still, the Cleveland MSA market is certainly separate from the Detroit or San Fransicso MSA. Even in the COW states, not every market was approaching $1000 for 1004s.

In each of these individual markets, it may be the same AMC players, but the suppliers (appraisers) are all different and still have complete freedom to enter and exit. Each time an individual accepts an assignment for less than what others are comfortable with (undercutting, feeding their family, whatever you wish to call it), then C&R in that market goes down just a tiny bit. But the process can go both ways, it is not irreversible. Here's how this will play out in a sample market.

AMCs and lenders alike want to pay as LITTLE as possible for reports. Appraisers want as MUCH as possible for reports. That is normal on both sides, and part of life. Each transaction is in effect a little negotiation, isnt it? No one is forced to EVER accept any assignment. We are not employees. Now some are, as staff appraisers, but I am not speaking of those folks.

As demand for appraisals goes down, each INDIVIDUAL appraiser has a decision to make. Do they take on less work, or lower their acceptable fee in an attempt to get more orders than others? I think this is an important concept. I would hope all agree that this is how it 'goes down'. Some have some minimum fee they feel their value provided is worth, and are willing to hold their ground. I applaud them! If EVERY appraiser did that, then even in a slowdown, fees would not go down. But some invariably accept a lower fee, inching down that C&R as described above. Some appraisers will decide that the now lower C&R fees are not acceptable, and exit to another career, live off savings for months or longer, retire, blow up an AMC headquarters, etc.

So now there are fewer suppliers to match the lower demand, and perhaps prices stabilize. And the process repeats.

I understand the point you are making about AMC's allegedly taking a big cut out of the appraisers' pockets. If an AMC if getting $300 for minimal ordering/servicing/delivery on a report the appraiser gets $350 for, I get that this is not right. But we have allowed this to happen. Do you think that absent the development of AMCs that the appraiser in this example would otherwise be getting $650 for that report today? I don't.

If C&R is lower than what we want to it be, it is appraisers' faults. The barriers to entry of appraising have always been high. Alternate products were always few. So why is it appraisal fees BEFORE AMCs came out did not grow with inflation? Wasn't the AMCs doing that.

There are certainly many issues in this industry, but lets never forget that each market is still its own independent entity in a way. Maybe one appraiser in each city or market needs to form a co-op so everyone's interests could get on the same page. I am thinking about doing just that in my market. We will never have direct representation in Washington or even at the state level, but we do still control our fates in each individual market. And each and every assignment accepted, declined, or countered helps to set C&R just a tiny little bit.
 
Gorge Hatch, post: 2861813, member: 66065"]That was the effect of a less efficient marketplace. The average mtg broker had maybe 5 appraisers to choose from in their rolodex. Whoever had cold-called them. Your AMC clients have 500 or re potential vendors for that unit of production. When it comes to them have alternatives, there's no comparison between the size of the groups the AMCs are working with vs what the individual mtg bkrs were working with.

How can you say it's about an "efficient market place", when it's not efficiency... mtge brokers then ( and direct order lenders now) do not care about fee as long as it is reasonable, because they DO NOT KEEP PART OF APPRAISAL FEE AS PROFIT.
Not a matter of 5 appraisers or 500 appraisers, there are nationwide direct lenders now ordering through Mercury and appraisal scope with 500 or more appraisers who pay good fees because they DO NOT KEEP PART OF APPRAISAL FEE AS PROFIT. And if a nationwide panel is 500 or 1000 appraisers, in an AMC , they are not all competing for an order, it;s regional ordering so maybe it is 5 appraisers, or 10 in the local area on their panel.

Besides, the MBs didn't care what the fee was so long as you made value. That was the cliche back then:

That was not true of all clients then either. Direct lenders now pay good fees and they are not value pushing, so how do you explain that? Are you honestly going to tell me you see zero connection between the fact that AMC;s and only AMC;s are paying low, and blast emailing and soliciting bids for stinky little res orders, is unrelated to the fact that the AMC incentive to pay low fees is because it's their profit stream?

Yes, it stank back then that some mtge brokers pushed for value. But excusing today's stinky AMC situation because something else was stinky then makes sense? Personally, overall, I think the low fee AMC situation by time it is done will have done more damage to the profession. Good appraisers survived the mtge broker years, but many are folding in the AMC years, because they can't compete against fast cheap crank em out and bifurcated trend will accelerate that. .

Usually what would happen is on that last deal the bkr would go berserk, call you up and tell you that you made a huge error in your last report that was so bad they lost their client AND the lender realtionship, and you were costing them thousands of dollars of fees they had pending in that pipeline. So now you're done, and BTW we're keeping those outstanding appraisal fees to offset our losses.

A stereotype. While the worst of the mtg brokers did that, we had choice whether to work for them or not and most were not that bad. There were direct lenders back then too and believe it or not, decent mtge brokers as well. I I never got stiffed on an appraisal invoice because of value. I got dropped by a few mortgage brokers back in the day but always found other work. I also got no more orders from some outfits (and so have other appraisers ) for "coming in low" post HVCC so it has not been a cure all.

Go back and read for content and not your feelz. I'm not excusing the AMC situation, nor am I condemning it. I'm not rendering a moral judgment at all. I'm simply making the observation. 10 years ago I got most of the assignments I bid on and I had a closed client list. Now I'm dealing with a larger number of clients and even taking calls from randoms because only about half of the bids I put out come back as assignments. The marketplace for services on the commercial side is now more efficient than it used to be, so even with the same (or fewer) CGs the lenders are increasingly shopping around by price.

As for your end of the market, we've been over that many times over. The lenders are the ones choosing to use the AMCs, and it is by their choice that they're allowing and encouraging the AMCs to shop by price AND they are choosing to take those appraisals in - whatever you assume of the quality of that work.

The AMCs didn't create and they don't control the decisions that the lenders are making, any more than appraisers control the decisions any of our clients are making.

You are pining for a 2005 market environment that doesn't exist and can never exist again because the marketplace has changed. There are no more boilerroom operations generating interest in loans via cold calling - borrowers shop online, sometimes at the aggregators like Lending Tree, where the tagline is "when banks compete you win". That wasn't even possible 15 years ago which is why that situation basically didn't even exist 15 years ago. People now shop online for everything, from shoes to phones to cars; and yes, even browsing for apartment rentals and homes for sale. None of that was a thing 15 years ago, now it is THE thing that is putting all sorts of retail sales out of business. That includes a large chunk of the retail sales of appraisals.

Borrowers are shopping for loans differently and the lenders are shopping for appraisals differently. And if you think that redirecting all the traffic to Mercury is going to solve anything then you apparently don't know what happens on RIMS everyday as commercial appraisers bid against each other for those assignments. You will end up with the E-Bay situation and the effect on fees will remain the same.

Given that banks like Wells have chosen *for years* to use AMCs that shop by price and harrass the appraiser with their high maintenance demands do you really think their priorities are going to change if/when the govt outlaws AMCs?

Fewer points of sale result in more appraisers competing with each other at each. The effects of that are inevitable. That's not me advocating for it or condemning it. I'm simply making the observation.

Any fool can see where this trend is going and what the market for appraisal services is going to look like in 10 years, as the consumers' increasing usage of the internet more completely disassembles the retail sales model for most goods and services. And yes, it's eventually going to put a lot of the AMCs under, too. Not that their demise is going to make any difference to your fees.
 
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GH-"Fewer points of sale result in more appraisers competing with each other at each. The effects of that are inevitable. That's not me advocating for it or condemning it. I'm simply making the observation. "

But your observation deliberately leaves out that it is not just "fewer points of sale", its about what happens to fees when a large # of the "Points of sale" act as wholesale buyers, looking to purchase appraisals cheap from vendors and make money off them.

This has not happened in large scale on commercial side, but it has happened on large scale on the residential side. To put it simply, while commercial appraisers might have to compete with each other on fees for a segment of work such as on RIMS bidding, the buyer is still usually a lender, who is not looking to make money off the appraisal itself, while an AMC looks to make $ off the appraisal itself via what they pay the appraiser.
 
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