Appraiser didn't measure during interior inspection

[Chuck Melton]

What if not mentioned in Scope of Work?

Scope of work, scope of work, scope of work. There is nothing in USPAP that requires an inspection of any kind... it boils down to the scope of work.

So what is the verdict if the scope of work says nothing about the level of inspection (FNMA 1004 has a minimum requirement of "Visual" inspection of interior and exterior), nor does he state anywhere else where he obtained his square footage information from, other than the fact that there is a sketch in the report - he literally duplicated the County's sketch in his sketch software, but does not state anywhere that he did or did not measure, nor does he reference anywhere the source for his dimensions.

 

[Terrel L. Shields]

while I'm listing to Jon Mayer or something.

I prefer "something"...anything to Jon Mayer
But I also prefer something that seems missing in much of the above discussion..common sense.

I appraise a lot of poultry farms. Just finished one today. The barn were 36' x 470' and 40' x 400'. Did I measure them? Nope, but I promise that if 100 residential appraisers measured them more than half would come up with something like 36.33' x 471.56' or some such nonsense. The barns income is based upon a standard "size"...that being 36' x 470' no matter what you might 'think' is the right measurements....by the way your disto won't shoot from one end to the other. So when you measure such a building, the tension on the tape matters. Too much and you undermeasure, too little and you overmeasure...A wheel? It slips.
Regarding measuring to the foot, the inch, whatever. Has anyone here heard of "false accuracy"? Like how it is impossible to measure increments to a greater degree of accuracy than the items deviation from a norm?... How thick is siding? Do you hang your measuring device on the corner?...to the thick side? to the thin side of the board? The foundation? Wainscot brick? I can pick "corner" from one to the other and differ by 2-3"..on rock walls, 6"..maybe more. The idea that you can measure a house to 0.1 foot when the edges vary by that much or more is mathematical nonsense.
And what about upper floors, especially dormers and ½ stories. Do you crawl up on the roof?...measure in angstroms with an electron microscope? Won't matter. So long as the siding varies by ½" or so on each side, achieving .01 or 0.1 foot accuracy is a pipe dream no matter how precisely you measure.
As for assessor records. Its fine to use them if you trust them. For a farm appraisal, I am likely to spot check the additions and go on. I generally don't trust them if I was doing a secondary market appraisal...ok, still 90% of them are close or very close. And to what purpose? A house slightly out of square will mean your measurements won't close (in a surveying sense.) Do you think it is systematic measuring flaw then you divvy up the error among all the sides measured...i am sure you all do that. Or, is it because a wall is freakin' out of square. Carpenters screw up sometimes.
Finally, are you physically measuring the comparables? Or depending upon the REALTOR or the ASSESSOR to provide you that data?????
THINK ABOUT IT FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. How the heck can you make an adjustment for Square footage that is any more accurate than the anticipated accuracy of the SF of the comparables????
DUH! You can't.
So you measure the subject is hundreds of a foot and your MLS reports the SF from the builder or the Assessor to the foot....therefore, any attempt to measure your subject any closer than TO THE FOOT is a complete hoax upon yourself....sadly, I fear no small number of appraisers don't have a clue to what I just said.

 

[Chuck Melton]

...
Lecture and moral high-ground aside, how could the state board prove that the appraiser didn't measure any given subject property? And in the overall scheme of things, how does measuring a stucco box like a thousand other stucco boxes compare to valuation fraud by poor comp selection?
...

In this case, Rudy, his sketch matches line for line, dimension for dimension, the County records sketch and makes the same exact mistake that the County records exhibit - a garage that is too large at the expense of GLA.

Of the people I know whom I am certain measure the homes they inspect, not one of them rounds to the nearst foot, or even half-foot. They all round to the nearest tenth-of-a-foot. And if he had measured, what are the odds he'd make the same mistake the County did and to the same degree they did?

Don't get me wrong, I am not hinging my complaint on this issue, but to me IT IS a signficant one because Quantifying is second only to Identifying. And when it comes to homes, market data shows that GLA is the single parameter that best represents value within most any segment of the market.

It might be a relatively small mistake (missed 130 of 1,830, or 7% of the GLA), but the reason for the mistake is inexcusable. He had the opportunity during inspection to verify an possibly the most important single characteristic of any home, and he walked away from it.

I'm still looking for a good way to argue my position on this to the board, but all they will really care about is what aspect of USPAP has been violated. Right now it's looking like SOW based upon typical peer conduct.

Anyone have better suggestions?

 

[Chuck Melton]

Should've been clearer

What's the real question, measuring at all or measuring the interior specifically?

Why not measure GLA according to ANSI standards. Measure garage, porches, utility areas separately.

Don't see what the point is of measuring inside unless you found an area which isn't really living space.

Sorry Alison,

By that I meant, measuring the improvements in general while doing an appraisal whose SOW calls for interior inspection, like a 1004 FNMA. And of course you should separate out non-living areas like porches/patios, garages, pool enclosures, etc.

 

[Chuck Melton]

How is the appraiser going to make any money and meet the turn-time expectations of the AMC if he (or, she) has to take time to actually measure the improvements?

LOL... of course, I must be going senile - it all makes sense nowm2:

 

[Couch Potato]

Consider the local perspective

So what is the verdict if the scope of work says nothing about the level of inspection (FNMA 1004 has a minimum requirement of "Visual" inspection of interior and exterior), nor does he state anywhere else where he obtained his square footage information from, other than the fact that there is a sketch in the report - he literally duplicated the County's sketch in his sketch software, but does not state anywhere that he did or did not measure, nor does he reference anywhere the source for his dimensions.

Does he reference using the public records as a source of information for the report? If so, I don't see how you can make an issue of it. The measurements used for comparable sales are from the same source, and provide the best comparison. From my experience appraising in Florida I would say, unless there is something about the assessor's sketch that indicates it is obviously unreliable, questioning it's use is making a mountain out of a mole hill in Florida (of course a mole hill could pass as a mountain in much of Florida. )

Here in North Carolina it would be a very big deal not to measure personally. In this state real estate agents are routinely sued over inaccuracies of square footage listed in MLS; it is required to be right, and cannot be just the assesor's number. With the standards for agents, you better believe it's important for an appraiser to measure.

The only real problem would be if the appraiser claimed to have done otherwise, or did not acknowledge using public records as a source for information in the report.

 

[Chuck Melton]

On the MLS input sheet for my MLS there are required fields for measurement. Choices are: Public Record, Agent Measured, or Appraiser Measured.

Please don't tell my you personally measure the comparables because I won't even believe it. You have to make some assumptions. My choice is that of public record which, incidentally, is what the real estate agents use.

Long ago I decided that I would use public record because if someone is checking my work that is the first place they go. I also choose to use the same level of measurement that the assessor uses, ie., to the nearest 1/2 foot. My some 12,000 reports have been consistent and have never been a problem when it comes to square footage with one exception. A VA reviewer recently said I was off because he calculated the measurements to the inch. Unfortunately, he counted the stairs on both levels so I won.

Mike I don't think anyone is going to say they measure the comps - we don't have the right to go on their property without permission. Public records is the only option there

Can the data for the comps be incorrect? yes. But if only one of your, lets say, 5 comps is inaccurate, then the impact of this error should be cut by some 80% assuming equal weighting to all comps.

Choose not to measure, get unlucky and have a subject with incorrect GLA info in public records, and 100% of the error makes it into your opinion of value.

EDIT---------------------------
BTW, I always double check the MLS info for the comps and if there is a discrepancy in relation to public records, I follow up on it.

 

[Chuck Melton]

.....
And plagerizing public information regarding a subject's size, with absolutely no disclosure of having done so... is a no no in my book.....
Webbed.

Can public records be plagiarized? I thought the "PUBLIC" part meant the PUBLIC owns it, as in public domain?

Although I agree you should disclose the source.

 

[Mike Garrett RAA]

Ya know, Chuck, I can't argue with your methodology...mainly because I don't understand half of what you said.

Out here in the west, it's pretty easy. Lets just suppose there is a 200SF difference in size. That represents a small bedroom in a median priced house. The market perception of value for another bedroom is, say, $5000. That would indicate an adjustment of, say, $25 per square foot. It isn't rocket science but it works.

Out our way, real estate agents talk about $100 to $150 a square foot when selling a home. Makes little sense but it surprising how many do that.

I caught that plagiarize thing too. We are encouraged to use public information out here. In fact, the assessor will happily send the data via email to recognized appraisers.

 

[Sheikh Yerbouti]

I appraise a lot of poultry farms. Just finished one today. The barn were 36' x 470' and 40' x 400'. Did I measure them? Nope, but I promise that if 100 residential appraisers measured them more than half would come up with something like 36.33' x 471.56' or some such nonsense. The barns income is based upon a standard "size"...that being 36' x 470' no matter what you might 'think' is the right measurements....by the way your disto won't shoot from one end to the other. So when you measure such a building, the tension on the tape matters. Too much and you undermeasure, too little and you overmeasure...A wheel? It slips.

So Terrel, do you use the Doc Rupel CS (chicken sh*t) factor when measuring your barns? You know, the multiplier that adjusts for the buildup of chicken poop on your wheel?