AQB's latest dumbing down by 'Stakeholders' Dropping the College Degree Requirement

[J Grant]

I never said going to college and getting a degree in history makes somebody a great appraiser. But times are also different now than 30+ years ago. I have two kids in high school, damn near everyone they know goes to some level of college. And the ones that don’t are very specific with the trades/jobs they’re getting into. So do you really want the people that are not going to college today and have no real goals or aspirations other than wanting to go work at a supermarket to be able to Have that easy of a path to a certification?

Make a military exemption if they want, if you serve active duty for five years, that satisfies the college requirement. I’d be all for that.

Taking two years worth of classes in a community college is a very cheap and easy way to satisfy an associate degree requirement.

I knew this change was coming 10 years ago when I heard representatives from these organizations start referring to professional appraisers as “labor”.

Yes, some military or another specialized service can imo apply to at least partial education credit

As you are aware, within the military, with a rare few exceptions, a commissioned officer must have a college degree ( which is why many come from West Point)- so for the decision-making end, higher than NCO sergeant, the military wants college education. Clearly, there is something in the college education that prepares people for broader responsibility and higher levels of decision-making in any field - the very fact that some college courses are more theoretical and philosophical in nature that provides the mindset that can then be applied in any profession or occupation.

 

[Zoe]

Perjaps.

I realize you were being funny and ironic (I assume that) but there is probably a measure of truth behind it. I highly doubt the completely clueless posts we get here from Paris about basic HBU, whether a lot is excess or surplus; those are not, I would bet $ on it from college-educated people. While folks can remember/memorize enough to pass a test and get licensed, applying that in practice and being able to reason and think their way through problems is another skill, and that is what college imparts to people.

Of course, some appraisers have the reasoning and thinking skills of those who did not go to college, but college or equivalent bar levels the playing field at the bottom rung—that is why so many professions want it.

George? FUNNY? Your getting better at sarcasm. He is on a mission. Not sure the commission yet. Remember he was former law enforcement officer.

 

[Zoe]

J Grant, I worry about you sometimes girl. If your primary focus is MV defintion and MV opinion of value?

Now little girl, play me JGrant. Your angles are totally off base sometimes.

I read George and Dwiley.

I have very few gifts. I read people. Remember MV definition.

I was voted most talented in High School

Gifts are different.

 

[Joe Flacco]

The problem with the argument that education is not necessary to become a competent appraiser is that then by the same logic, supervised experience is also not necessary to become a competent appraiser. Neither is appraisal education.

None of this is bare minimum necessary to become a competent appraiser.

All you need bare minimum is ability to read and comprehend USPAP standards, research, critical thinking, problem solving, reporting skills.

 

[Terrel L. Shields]

Real world ethics are not learned in college.

Story. A certain ex-Walmart executive funded and ran a "Business Ethics" class within a local University. A few years ago, he hired a local appraiser to tell him what his house and adjacent lot was worth in Bentonville. He was quite unhappy with the report, refused to pay the appraiser, and lamblasted him as incompetent. Put the house on the market for about 50% more than the appraisal. Six months later dropped the price. Six months later dropped the price. Six months later dropped the price and just short of 2 years on the market, sold both the lot and house for exactly what the appraiser had valued the house at...created so much "It's been on the market so long, something must be wrong" stigma that he actually got less than the original appraisal reported...never paid the appraiser.

Or require a general CLEP exam to ensure the applicants understand general studies well and leave the licensing exam alone, and just require both. It bothers me when an appraiser struggles with basic grammar and writing but somehow will be an expert in supply/demand analysis?

Point...but how long before AI is writing our reports anyway?

A prime example was a recent post where an appraiser was asking the AF community for help in explaining to a reviewer how he had developed his GLA adjustment rate. How does someone hold a CR and not know how to support his own GLA adjustment rate?

That, unfortunately is the outgrowth (IMNSHO) of flawed mentoring. UC talks about "the book" and we laugh but the truth is a ton of appraisers were taught to use "the book" and all that malarkey about making adjustments was just pie in the sky "theory." And I know I was introduced by an appraiser to his "new" assistant and six months later that "assistant" was a CR...How could that happen? Well, lying. That same guy sit near me complaining all the time during a USPAP class about "that's not the real world" or "I could do 2 appraisals today if I didn't have to take this class..." ...and when the fit hit the shan in 2008, he and his mentor both got blistered in their little appraisal mill, and where are they today? Not appraising, that's for sure.

Why would quality, intelligent, and/or college-educated people choose to get a res license in the future, seeing dismal pay and opportunities on the mortgage end, the largest section of res work.?

Ah, to ask the right question... to which there is no answer. The regulators avoid the issue of compensation and fairness like the plague with the aloof argument that "the appraiser agrees to the fee." (An argument both George & Danny have frequently made.) Yeah, and when I download new proprietary software, I "agree" to the terms and conditions voluntarily...sure I do. Do I have a choice?

OTOH, and considering the average "degree" today is piffle, and the degree holder unlikely to find a job in "performing arts", "sports analysis", "communications", "fine arts", or even a science like, "archaeology" (which has such limited opportunities although incredibly interesting work) some college grads would be happy to pursue a career in a low paying field just to have a job.

We've become a nation of part-time jobs because no one can make a living with just one job. Sad reality.

 

[George Hatch]

I never said going to college and getting a degree in history makes somebody a great appraiser. But times are also different now than 30+ years ago. I have two kids in high school, damn near everyone they know goes to some level of college. And the ones that don’t are very specific with the trades/jobs they’re getting into. So do you really want the people that are not going to college today and have no real goals or aspirations other than wanting to go work at a supermarket to be able to Have that easy of a path to a certification?

Make a military exemption if they want, if you serve active duty for five years, that satisfies the college requirement. I’d be all for that.

Taking two years worth of classes in a community college is a very cheap and easy way to satisfy an associate degree requirement.

I knew this change was coming 10 years ago when I heard representatives from these organizations start referring to professional appraisers as “labor”.

The question at hand for a qualifications protocol is how much college does it take, if any, for the *average* (not special) individual to learn how to become a competent appraiser?.
The line between enough vs not-enough has to be drawn somewhere, which by definition will include some people and exclude others. But where?

We take QE courses in part to demonstrate that we have been exposed to the content and have passed the testing for it, as opposed to never having been exposed to the material. The operative term therein being "demonstrate" the competency with the instructional material.

Back before licensing I personally knew several appraisers who never took ANY appraisal courses prior to working as an appraiser, including a few who were running fee shops or operating solo. They learned about appraising from studying the first half of "The Appraisal of Real Estate" and a couple of the Harrison guides; and by using someone else's existing appraisal report as a template.

You wouldn't have been able to discern that from reading the reports we were writing back then. Some of them went on to take the requisite QE for licensing, some of them didn't and ended up leaving the business.

 

[J Grant]

Story. A certain ex-Walmart executive funded and ran a "Business Ethics" class within a local University. A few years ago, he hired a local appraiser to tell him what his house and adjacent lot was worth in Bentonville. He was quite unhappy with the report, refused to pay the appraiser, and lamblasted him as incompetent. Put the house on the market for about 50% more than the appraisal. Six months later dropped the price. Six months later dropped the price. Six months later dropped the price and just short of 2 years on the market, sold both the lot and house for exactly what the appraiser had valued the house at...created so much "It's been on the market so long, something must be wrong" stigma that he actually got less than the original appraisal reported...never paid the appraiser.

Point...but how long before AI is writing our reports anyway?

That, unfortunately is the outgrowth (IMNSHO) of flawed mentoring. UC talks about "the book" and we laugh but the truth is a ton of appraisers were taught to use "the book" and all that malarkey about making adjustments was just pie in the sky "theory." And I know I was introduced by an appraiser to his "new" assistant and six months later that "assistant" was a CR...How could that happen? Well, lying. That same guy sit near me complaining all the time during a USPAP class about "that's not the real world" or "I could do 2 appraisals today if I didn't have to take this class..." ...and when the fit hit the shan in 2008, he and his mentor both got blistered in their little appraisal mill, and where are they today? Not appraising, that's for sure.

Ah, to ask the right question... to which there is no answer. The regulators avoid the issue of compensation and fairness like the plague with the aloof argument that "the appraiser agrees to the fee." (An argument both George & Danny have frequently made.) Yeah, and when I download new proprietary software, I "agree" to the terms and conditions voluntarily...sure I do. Do I have a choice?

OTOH, and considering the average "degree" today is piffle, and the degree holder unlikely to find a job in "performing arts", "sports analysis", "communications", "fine arts", or even a science like, "archaeology" (which has such limited opportunities although incredibly interesting work) some college grads would be happy to pursue a career in a low paying field just to have a job.

We've become a nation of part-time jobs because no one can make a living with just one job. Sad reality.

I agree in part wrt gig work or part-time work and it traces back to regs and also a social acceptance that all the power and policy go to the very top, which they call capitalism, and none or little to workers, which those in power allege is communism or socialism ( it is not, most capitalism has at least some worker protection and benefits such as health care - it, depends on how much )

College degrees are not the piffle you suggest; that seems an attitude adopted by those who scorn education - since the military, law enforcement, and other hierarchical systems require college degrees for higher ranking positions and entire professions in the private sector require it. However, it is true that a college education is not a guarantee of employment or high income. It was at one time not intended to be that; education for its own sake has a value - and maybe that person taking a low-paid grunt job can write a novel or design software on the side - just saying.

 

[ucbruin]

Seems like the appraiser over valued the property 2 years before the sale....
Or the area was very stable market....

 

[George Hatch]

As for the money that's obviously a huge factor to all concerned. Nobody is saying otherwise. Full stop.

But the money - and competition control - is not one of the roles of the licensing programs or the qualifications criteria. That's why , as Terrel notes "The regulators avoid the issue of compensation and fairness ..." They avoid it because it's literally none of their business. That's not one of their roles, it's not part of their job description. The only reason AIR exists is because of the requirements for objectivity due to the demonstrated effects of client advocacy on the value conclusions.

It's a function of the market for services which speaks to the money, even if that market demand is affected on the user side by the laws/regs they operate under.

If Covid blew through the appraisal profession and took 50% of us out the fee situation would change drastically, and everyone here knows it. You can't acknowledge that while believing that the main reason for the current fees is unrelated to the current supply/demand dynamic

 

[chad hampton]

I have no doubt that you can pull someone with only a HS diploma off the street and they will become a highly competent appraiser in no time at all. The question is should we be making standards and procedures based on the small % of that happening? Or should we base policy on what is more likely the case in the real world?