Are they really stealing our sketchs?

[Conservative in Virginia]

okey dokey.. thanks for the input gang!

 

[CANative]

If you're discussing FannieForm appraisal work then it's not stealing and you said they could do it when you signed the appraiser's certifications which includes Cert. 21.

 

[DTB]

So we have Cert 21 mandated and no AVM is built using appraiser data.

We have appraisers' feet on the street verified data of the subject at least, and no AVM is built with appraisers' data.

We have oodles of evidence that public records are often significantly incorrect, and no AVM is built with appraisers' data.


Sure thing.

 

[Workbox]

What kind of evidence are you looking for?

 

[Mark to market]

Conservative,

Not only are they NOT stealing your sketches but they are not mining your appraisal for AVM data either- at least no one other than Freddie Mac (IF they are doing it).

Many assessors offices use the same or similar sketching software as you use.

Brad

The following is a quote from Working RE Magazine

>Brad Ellis, Chief Appraiser for Valuation Quality Assurance for Indymac Bank, America’s seventh largest mortgage lender
WRE: Do AVMs mine appraiser’s data?

Ellis: For the most part, no. Of all the AVMs available out in the market, the only two that have admitted actually “mining” data are Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. The Fannie Mae AVM is used only internally and its output is not publicly available; that is to say, no one can actually buy one from them. Conversely, Freddie Mac’s product, Home Value Explorer, is sold publicly.

 

[DTB]

The following is a quote from Working RE Magazine

>Brad Ellis, Chief Appraiser for Valuation Quality Assurance for Indymac Bank, America’s seventh largest mortgage lender
WRE: Do AVMs mine appraiser’s data?

Ellis: For the most part, no. Of all the AVMs available out in the market, the only two that have admitted actually “mining” data are Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. The Fannie Mae AVM is used only internally and its output is not publicly available; that is to say, no one can actually buy one from them. Conversely, Freddie Mac’s product, Home Value Explorer, is sold publicly.

A Doddian slip perhaps? :blush:

 

[Carnivore]

The question is why would they not steal or if you prefer, 'take' all the information from an appraisal?

 

[Lawrence R.]

If you're discussing FannieForm appraisal work then it's not stealing and you said they could do it when you signed the appraiser's certifications which includes Cert. 21.

My point exactly. Look, I am not even trying to say what they are doing is illegal or unethical. what they are doing is altogether EXPECTED by me and many others, and frankly I can't blame them.

And Brad, a warning to you. You talk a lot. You post a lot. You are quoted a lot. You may be at the point where you shouldn't talk any more, just point people toward what you have already said. Any small shift in what you say, vs what you already said is going to impugn your integrity, even though you weren't trying to say 2 different things.

Be careful, people are paying attention to you. Unlike me, you are not free to change your story.

 

[Pamela Crowley (Florida)]

How about full disclosures and explanations from First American, Fidelity National Title, and FNC about the First American and Fidelity National AMCs converting/altering appraisal reports into AIReady and providing those altered appraisal reports to both the lender/clients and FNC...

WHY is this happening?
WHAT is being done with all this appraiser's data?
WHICH databases and AVMs are being populated because of this?
WHO is financially benefitting from this?

Let's put all the disclosures and evidence in front of the media and the courts. Anybody not in favor of full disclosure?

More questions:
Did these companies purchase software to do these alterations or was it given to them free?
What software is being used for these alterations?

 

[Brad Ellis]

larry, William and Caligirl,

Don't drink the water Brad is offering you on this...I don't buy that for a second. They do mine them, all the time. Why not? do you think they just read the bottom of page 2 and throw them away? Hell no. They paid for it, it's theirs, they can do what they want with them.

Right Brad?

Edited to add: If they don't, they have missed a golden opportunity....if they don't mine appraisals, how DO the AVM's get their data?

I certainly hope that the others who are knowledgeable on this subject like Vernon and Bama who have now told you the very same thing I said will at least make you pause and consider whether what you believe is actually fact or whether you have chosen to believe it because it simply fits with your own overall sensibilities?

And I think it quite important for individuals who are purportedly trained not only to gather data but to verify and analyze it.

Now to answer larry's specific question, it is my opinion that the client owns your report and may do with it whatever is legally premitted. Because there is really no case law specific enough to cite here (and do not bother with the one case won under copyright as those issues were totally different), I intentionally chose the word "opinion". I do believe, however, that I have a supportable view pursuant to certification 21.

So, how do I KNOW- for a fact- that FNC does not use your data to produce an AVM? That one is very simple. They have NO AVM- period. And as I have told you many times before, I happen to know that they are legally barred from producing one (right now) due to a contractual obligation.

How do I happen to know this? Because I have spent literally hundreds of hours over the years with employees and principals of this firm and have had many many discussions with them about it. If they had an AVM from this data, trust me on this- I'd be buying it already.

Now Bama and Vernon have both told you- and they do NOT currently work for any bank as an employee so you do not have to hate them- that they also know that AVMs are not being produced by mining data from your appraisal reports.

Let's get into data mining. Why would they mine the data if not to produce an AVM? Lots of reasons.

First an AVM provides an estimate of value. The products offered by FNC do not include that. For any who chose not to believe that I'd just challenge you to show one to all of us.

But their products DO aggregate the data they gather for other purposes. For example, I can query their system for all reports we have received in a particular zip code to see what predominant values existed- based upon reports done for us or submitted to us. I can see predominant home sizes, ages, room counts, highs and lows, etc. etc. That data can be very helpful in reviewing.

Please note that the national collateral database they envision has not yet actually happened since they may not- by contract- share our data with anyone else. And I will not offer that unless/until I can get that data from their other clients- and none of them have yet (that I know of) okayed that. The problems is that I'll not give up that data so that a much smaller bank gets to see/use it when all I get in return is a paltry amount of ther data. Similarly a much larger bank like WAMU will not give us theirs for the same reason- the trade offs are not yet worth it.

The one partial exception to that is what they call a blended public record- on one property that may blend what an appraiser reports with the existing public record- but, frankly, I pay little attention to that since it is of little value to me. And, I have never asked much about that.

So, where do these AVMs get their data- from existing public records for the most part. A couple use MLS data. But- please pay close attention to this as I am telling you the honest truth on this- THEFRE IS NO AVM IN EXISTENCE TODAY THAT IS BASED WHOLLY OR EVEN IN PART ON ANY DATA IN THE APPRAISAL REPORT THAT IS NOT EASILY AVAILABLE FROM OTHER SOURCES (like the sales price).

Now I know I am banker and you will choose to not believe me- so don't believe ME- instead believe Bama and Vernon.

So how do I know this part? Well, there are 3 firms that test the accuracy of AVMs today. I use one of them and have tested their methods. The other two are firms owned by Lee Kennedy of AVMetrics ( a good guy and any who wish to really learn about this can take his course offered nearly every year in Vegas at the Valuation conferences from Appraisal Buzz) and by Kevin Golden, my former boss. Both also regularly speak at the PMC conferences.

So, I have tested virtually every AVM currently in existence (actually I do not do it myself but our analysts do it) but I have to opine on the results. To do that I always need to know the source of the data. THAT is how I know.

The assumptions being made on this are beyond silly; they are dangerous because if you take actions based upon what you believe then you will be quite unpleasantly surprised if/when they turn out to be dead wrong.

Still cannot believe this? OK- pick out one of your own appraisals (or get size data from someone else in another state if your sate is non-disclosure) where your size is substantially different from the public record and run any AVM you like on it.

You will quickly see the "comp" data being used and whatever parameters you choose, such as +/- 15% for size will show data reflecting the public record.

Brad