College degree?

[bobburnitt]

I would be more than satisfied (for now) if the state of Texas alone, would raise the educational requirement for Certified Residential Real Estate Appraiser to a level equal to Texas Real Estate Broker requirement which is 900 hours, and raise the requirement for State Certified General Real Estate Appraiser to 1,800 hours. Forget the degree. If that would happen (and it won't), I would shut up about it, humm, well maybe. If it didn't go nationwide, screw it, I'm not ever going to live anywhere else. I am too old to move.

Texas used to be like every other state in one respect, 35 years ago the basic requirement to get a real estate broker license was to have a pulse. If you could fog a mirror, you could be a real estate broker.

Then the state started raising the requirements. It has been GOOD for the industry. We now have the highest requirements in the nation for a broker license, however, some of the people that got their licenses way back before the requirements were increased are still around due to them being 'grandfathered'. And believe you me, you know it when you deal with them. It becomes apparent very quickly.

Raising the requirements for appraisers is something I obviously feel strongly about. It is only because I am convinced it is one of the best ways to improve the 'profession'. It worked here in Texas for brokers, and it will work for appraisers.

BB in Texas

 

[jtrotta]

bobb
You made a point of the 1980's and "bailing out the loan sleaze along with the plundering aid of crooked appraisers".

During that period, as is current today, the Lender has ooodles of data around them; under them; in between their legs and up their wazoo; if they choose to make a loan, do you honestly think an appraiser is going to stop them :?: Back in the 80's, I was selling RE and when lots were selling for $15K, some out of work people got into the business and began drive prices up, and within 6 months lots were selling for $32k and unrealistic value. Every parcel that sold, closed. Now are you telling me that the appraiser had to committ fraud :?: Was the Bank also providing a basis for Fraud :?:

During that period of time, people were selling their homes for twice what they had paid, they had what I called "monopoly dollars" - they would take the profit and re-invest in something more expensive, the Banker looked at their money position and made the loan. Actually, the appraiser during this period had very little to do with most of the deals. And if I remember correctly, most of the appraiser's of that period were "staff" appraiser's working directly for the Banks, and most were "College Educated".

You say "I know that I'm wasting my time discussing this issue, because the people who have the minimum education are generally not going to see the need for higher requirements. It is like talking to a teenager. A lot of teenagers can find every reason in the world not to go to college. It comes back to bite them later in life."
Well you hit the nail right on the head, I don't have a college education- but your wrong on several counts; #1-I'm well respected within my industry; #2-I have been in this business for oveer 15 years- just another uneducated successfull teenager; #3-I do see the need for specific requirements prior to comming into this business, but a college degree isn't the end all answer - #4-your attitude towards others in this business (regarding education) lacks the "professional aspect" you are attempting to create.

Lastly, I'm not putting the cart before the horse, we are "practicing appraiser's" in everyone else's eyes not professionals- because of the non-effective continuing education, that everyone knows is a joke. Haven't seen a good continuing ed class since 1981 - Can you tell me how many hours of CE an attorney is required to do :?: Can you tell me how many hours of CE a nurse is required to take :?: Can you tell me how many hours of CE is required for a dentist :?: In my state the hours are significantly less and less often than we are required to perform.

To-Jim Farrelly,
your right a higher education is a privilege and you need to be able to afford that education, so it is also a matter of affordability. Now you also state that you hold a couple of degrees, but elected to come into this field of work, and could you appraise without a degree :?: Yes
would i be successful :?: i doubt it. You claim these degrees helped raise your self esteem and confidence. Well good for you.

I've never lacked self esteem or confidence without a college degree, I've run 3 business's very sucessfully; My desire to accomplish something is what drives me, I truly enjoy "start up" business's, taking them from nothing and growing them into a sucessful enitity. I love the challenge :!:
Having raised six children, I did not have an opportunity to get a degree, but I've put (2) thru college so far. I'm not against anyone getting a degree, I don't think it should be madatory, without looking at other options, especially in this business.

Just A Thought 8)

 

[Terrel L. Shields]

I 'member those times. I backed out of buying a house in 1979 because the realtor told me that the house was going up at 10% per year..interest rates were 13%, and the math did not add up then. He acted like it was a great investment. A year later I rented a house on the same street as the one I was shown. The price was down by 20%, and my rent was $200/mo. 2 yr. later bought a two bedroom for $12,000 on an acre, owner fin. at 8%.

I reiterate. There is only one justification for requiring a college degree. It is an effort to have fewer people be qualified for the job...and this is a job more than a profession, independent contractor or not. But if we manage to reduce the number of appraisers, prices will skyrocket and the banks will get legislation passed to bypass us with evaluators, chartered surveyors, AVMs, anything. Appraisers as such will be a sunset industry and the 12 people left doing it will get an assignment about once in a blue moon. There are plenty of states who still rely on the opinion of 3 "commissioners of the court" to value estates.

There were an awful lot of appraisers in 1992 who thought licensing and USPAP would make them more professional, increase their wages, and bring about an air of respectability that was lost during the S & L crisis, characterized by the likes of the appraiser who went to jail over Whitewater for appraising property contingent upon a large loan from the bank he was appraising for.

You may call the work of personal property appraisers junk, but you can take that "junk" to the bank, to court, and pretty much be as right on as far as I can tell. There are an awful lot of people who can walk thru a house and estimate its value a heckofalot closer than a lot of appraisers seem capable of doing. Pressured or not, I doubt the percentage of appraisers who are honest does not vary on whether or not they have a degree.

Speaking of doctors, appraising is not brain surgery, nor science, nor even an art. It is the accumulation of experienced judgment presented in a systematic way that replicates the action of the marketplace. Written or not, a good appraiser can size up a property pretty well without crunching a great deal of numbers.

What a bore the Antiques Road Show would be if the appraisers would have to recite chapter and verse from USPAP before they could render an opinion. Wouldn't be able to appraise 2 vases in an hour.

USPAP was supposedly written by intelligent people. Why then did they lump Mineral Rights, part of the bundle of REAL rights, with intangibles, like franchises and copyrights? Def, pg. 3, if I am not mistaken. EVERY court in the nation I have ever heard of treats Mineral RIGHTS as REAL property.

There is not one single REAL ESTATE school in the nation that can prepare you to appraise Minerals or Timber, not one. Only a fool would try, and there are plenty of fools, I admit. And I venture the vast majority of those who attempt it are college degreed.

ter

 

[bobburnitt]

Well,

As I have said before, it is not the degree so much that I think is necessary, it is that educational requirements are too low for appraisers.

If having low requirements is a good thing, we should lower them further. Instead of requiring 120 hours for Certified Residential, maybe we should only require 30 minutes. No, wait a minute, the lower the better, 30 seconds would do it.

Maybe not in your state, but in Texas, attorneys, accountants, tax consultants, and many others are required to take CE. Many of the continuing ed classes I have taken have had all of the above in them.

And in the 80's, many appraisers were involved in loan fraud. Some went to jail, not near enough, but some did.

When I was a long haul trucker back years ago, I was respected among other truckers, big deal. No degree required for that either, and it pays more.

BB in Texas

 

[jtrotta]

bobb
you speak in tongue's of a profession; aren't carpenters; plumbers; electricians; roofers; and siding people all professionals within their industry :?: They currently make way more than we do and thats a fact :!:

there in Texas, during the mid 90's downfall, I remember many commercial properties, (appraised by MAI's ) that went into the toilet for value - now those are all done by College oriented folks and if I remember correctly it takes about ten years to accumulate enough edumacation to get the MAI designation. Thought it wasa even funnier when the govnmt.stepped in with their people and Sold off those properties for pennies on the dollar; I in particular remeber a 20,000 SF +/- commercial building that was claimed to be valued at about $10 Mil and was sold off for about $1.5 mil.

Now I believe the proof is in the pudding, what do you like :?: Chocolate; Vanilla; Buttersctotch :?: I'll have to agree with Terrell and I have been involved in an ample amount of work for the courts, if you do good work, you won't just be working for Banks.

You say your a retired truck driver, how did you get into this business :?:

8)

 

[bobburnitt]

jtrotta,

Extreme examples don't prove anything. I am not saying that raising the requirements will cure all. Education and ethics are two different things. Look at Bill Clinton. He is a Rhodes Scholar and he does not have the ethics God gave a **** ant. Ethics you get from your upbringing and from something in your soul you are born with.

There is a difference between a trade and a profession. Real Estate Appraisal is by and large not a profession, it is more of a trade. I am one who would like to see it elevated to a profession.

Real Estate Appraisal is not even respected in the real estate industry. As I have stated before, among the requirements for broker in Texas are 900 hours of education (no degree). The requirement in Texas for Certified Residential Real Estate Appraiser is 120 hours!!! Does that make sense to you? I hold both licenses in Texas and as I said before, the appraiser hat, GENERALLY, requires a higher level of expertise.

As far as making money goes, drug dealers make more money than appraisers, but I wouldn't call that a profession.

By the way, I am not a retired truck driver. I'm not retired from anything. The trucking business is something I tried when I was young. It really does boggle my mind though, the parallels I see between the appraisal business and the trucking business. Back when I was in that racket, there were too many trucks on the road due to the business being so easy to get into. Equipment was easy to finance, and just about anybody could start a trucking company overnight. Costs went up, freight rates went down. Cutthroat competition, nobody paying any attention to regulation, enforcement was a joke, same old, same old.

The trucking business has changed since I was in it. It is still a lousy business but it has come a long way since then. The problem with the trucking business now is, if you have enough money to get in the business, you don't need the business. If I had enough capital to start a trucking business, I would simply RETIRE at that point.

As I stated before, the degree thing is something I could take or leave. But, I think the requirements for appraisers are too low and need to be raised. I would like for the state of Texas to raise the requirements to at least a brokers level, what could possibly be wrong with that?

BB in Texas

 

[Dale Smalley]

One size does not fit for appraisers.
I havent seen many degree types in the hood snapping pics. There are different type of appraisers that know how to handle an REO situation. I would prefer using an appraiser with field experience. However there are more areas where the degree computer tech types would execell in. Such as mass appriasing, AVMs, reviews...
The good folks that write USPAP dont consider the non degree or non lawer like readers. Instead of making a simpler easy to understand set of guidelines. They want the users to have a college education then mabye some one will understand the true meaning of this book.

 

[Mike Garrett RAA]

I still don't get where you think we make less than plumbers, electricians, and carpenters????? My wife and I were talking about this last night while driving back from dinner.

I estimate each appraisal (on average) takes 5 hours. 1.5 hours logging in the assignment, pulling public records, doing a market analysis, and selecting comps. Allow two hours for inspection...30 minutes driving each way and an hour at the property plus photographing the comps. 1.5 hours verifying the data and preparing the report. Thats 5 hours...ok, ok, and another hour if you hand deliver it to the lender but most of what I do is now EDI. My fee is $350 for conventional, VA, and slightly more for FHA.

Thats $70 an hour. Now how does that come out less than an tradesman. Sure, sometimes you pay a company more for their services but the worker doesn't make that much.

My wife has been with Walmart Corporation for 14 years and only makes $12.75 an hour. Add in benefits and profit sharing and she is closer to $20 an hour. She is maxed out except for cost of living increases which are minimal these days.

I would say, stop crying! If you are not making enough, expand your client base. Look for other types of work such as estate, tax appeal, and divorce cases.

 

[jtrotta]

BB - Texas
Don't think the myriad of commercial failures in Texas were extreme, it was typical of the area at the time.

My appology for thinking you were retired :?

As far as raising the bar to get into the field, I have been of the opinion that the transition should be from within; be involved in Real Estate for a minimum of 4 years then go into the appraisal field. By that time, you will become familiar with the business of Real Estate. Getting a degree will not increase your ethics one iota, actually if you were a sleeze before you went to college, all the education will just allow you to become a smarter sleezeball. Please don't use Bill Clinton as an example for anything, that is useing an extreme situation in any matter.

8)

 

[bobburnitt]

To All,

The discussion fo raising the bar for the R.E. Appraisal industry appears to be threatening or offensive to some. I am really surprised at that reaction.

The bar was raised in Texas for brokers, and it was good for the industry. Surveyors MUST have a four year college degree in Texas to be certified. I don't hear them complaining.

To get my R.E. Broker license, I had to go back to college for two years, in my FORTIES to meet the requirements for Texas Real Estate Broker. It was quite a sacrifice. During this time I had a heart episode and had to have a $32,000 angioplasty, and had no health insurance. I only missed two days of school (thanks to the heart episode ocurring near spring break). It was a Hell of a sacrifice, but I did it.

There are people who aren't willing to make the sacrifice.

Field experience is great and absolutely necessary. As I said before, an experienced and competent tradesman of any type is valuable. I believe it is possible for people to be self educated as well. But to be experienced, self educated, and formally educated would be the ultimate.

Ridiculing college education and people who have college education, is not ever going to make you look good.

It is a privilege to attend college, but degrees have to be EARNED. Again, the only people who discount the value of college education are people who are not college educated.

Ethics or no ethics, you can believe one thing, after what I went through to get my Texas Real Estate Broker license, I am not going to do anything to risk revocation of that license. And being a dual licensee means that if I get in trouble with my R.E. Appraiser Certification, I could lose my Broker license as well.

Once more, the fact that 900 hours of education are required for real estate broker, and only 120 hours are required for Certified Residential makes no sense to me. Nobody has commented on that one.

My sole purpose of entering this discussion, is to make the industry better, FOR MYSELF and OTHERS as well. Never dreamed adults would ridicule formal education.

BB in Texas