copywriting

[Joyce Potts]

Oh but the appraisers have so many choices!!

 

[DWiley]

Well said, Mr. Dodd.

Joyce,

I suppose there is no truth to the rumor I heard about you applying to be president of my fan club. [He said with tongue in cheek]

You have often referred to appraisers "drinking the Kool-Aid." Tell me, if clients and vindictive competitors ask state boards to pursue charges of ETHICS RULE violations against appraisers who have registered copyrights on appraisal reports, thus making the assignment results a matter of public record, without the permission of the client, will you then refer to Kool-Aid Ala Mode?

Elliott,

I concur with the sentiment that appraisers should reap the rewards of data in their reports. On that point I whole-heartedly agree with Mr. Biggers. I worked hard for that very thing for several years. I am no longer involved in any such projects, but I still think they are a good idea.


Danny Wiley

 

[Brad Ellis]

Folks,

If I may, I'd like to put this all into a sort of balance sheet for your consideration as there are clearly 2 opposing viewpoints. And can we please avoid name calling and mudslinging?

OK- the pro copyright folks say that not only is the report itself able to be registered (I think we all agree on that part) but that the data contained therein is also protected. That, of course is where the divergence starts. So the pro side says- yes the data, too is protected.

Now the opposition says 1) you cannot copyright/protect factual data within the report (no matter who discovers it) and the Supremes have issued that decision years ago. So, our argument on that part is more on what is fact and what is not. 2) Add to that the wording in cert 21 that provides for distribtuion to data gathering sources whose intent will be to gather it (nope I am not a judge either so this is suppostion on my part). To me, the intent of that is pretty clear and I'd guess the courts will agree that the intent of it is clear enough. 3) Then we have the question over the original source of the data. If MLS it might be already registered so how can one register someone else's data? And this of course speaks to the question of fact vs. opinion. 4) Then we add in what Danny has discovered- that your report becomes, once registered. pubicly available to anyone and everyone. And that sure appears to me to be a direct dead on violation of the confidentiality portions of USPAP since the government is clearly not compelling you to register it. 5) Finally let's add on the obvious desire of clients (at least some) to gather that data for their own use.

So, while I am not suggesting that we pursue policies for the long term simply based upon current business climates, it sure could hurt an appraiser who contravenes his/her client's desires during this current period when so many are hurting for work.

My belief is that while we may not yet have a definitive answer on this, the factors present certainly seem to tilt in favor of the opposition right now. (yes- I know I am biased on this as do all of you)

Mr. Vining's case may well decide this for everyone- one way or the other. But until that happens, I see no absolutes here.

And all this to what end? Even if Mr. Vining wins his suit, how much is that data worth? And if this is not about money and the true reason is to protect the position of the appraiser, is it not also true that users of appraisals might then seek other avenues for the data and perhaps eventually do away with using appraisers altogether- if the regulatory groups and the 800 lb. gorillas of the lending business decide that is OK? I bring this up because once the stream of data stops, at least some of the value of the appraisal also stops.

Next. let's use the assumption that Mr. Vining wins and that those who do appraisals can get money for the data. So how much? Is it worth $1 per data set? So $4-7 per report if that is accurate. So, you get hired for $350 and then tell your client that it is an additional $4/report producing all of $3500-$4000/year (assuming 2 reports a day- 80 per month) in additional revenues (not profits necessarily as you have to spend time registering the reports and I do not know if there are expenses besides that).

So, if you are pro copyright and if my estimates/assumptions are at all accurate, how much is that really- an increase of 3-5% in revenues? And for that you want to risk ticking off a client or all of them over this issue - or even ultimately (admitting this is an extreme unintended consequence) put the entire profession into jeopardy?

Of course I know that extremes often do not occur. But I would ask that we look at this within a risk/reward context, too. To me, the risks really outweigh the rewards.

Given what Danny has discovered, your risk is really much greater. All you would need is one unhappy borrower to find out their appraisal is now publicly available who decides to sue you and all the financial rewards pretty much disappear- no? Doesn't even matter if they win.

Have a great day all.

Brad

 

[Richard Carlsen]

Again, I go back to my original question: Why would you want to copyright an appraisal report?

Being able to copyright something and needing to copyright something are two different things.

The second question that is germane to the discussion is: If there is a need to copyright something, am I willing to go to the expense of doing so and to also go to the expense to protect my copyright?

I have yet to see a good reason to do either.

 

[Stone]

Again, I go back to my original question: Why would you want to copyright an appraisal report?

Being able to copyright something and needing to copyright something are two different things.

The second question that is germane to the discussion is: If there is a need to copyright something, am I willing to go to the expense of doing so and to also go to the expense to protect my copyright?

I have yet to see a good reason to do either.

Those are really good questions, Richard. I have basically never cared what someone did with my report once they get it, and despite all the threads here over the years, I still don't. As long as I get paid and nobody tries to get me to do anything extra once they have it, I couldn't care less who uses it.

 

[Fred]

are clearly 2 opposing viewpoints. And can we please avoid name calling and mudslinging? OK- the pro copyright folks

Brad,
There just might be a third and objective way. I am neither pro or con copyrighting. The work is copyrighed the moment its created. I am neither pro or con registering appraisal reports with the copyright office. "Data" are not protected by copyright. Mr. Vining's case was clear instance of copyright infringement that was not based on "data," but based on exactly what the name implies: the right to make copies.

Mr. Vining's case is an illustration of how a lottery works. Thousands or millions of tickets are purchased and one person hits a jackpot.

 

[Terrel L. Shields]

Mr. Vining's case was clear instance of copyright infringement that was not based on "data," but based on exactly what the name implies: the right to make copies.

The credit bureu's information is "data" but try copying their credit reports verbatim, selling it, and see if you don't get sued...

 

[Richard Carlsen]

There is another question that must be asked (and answered).

The client contracts for an appraisal (the intellectual exercise of the appraiser). Upon completion of the appraisal, the appraiser provides the client, as required in the assignment, the results of that appraisal in the form of a written report. Since the written report is part of the assignment requirement, the report becomes the property of the client.

Can the appraiser copyright something (the written report of the appraisal) that becomes the property of another (the client)?

 

[Fred]

The credit bureu's information is "data" but try copying their credit reports verbatim, selling it, and see if you don't get sued...

What one might get sued for depends on what you mean by "copying."

the report becomes the property of the client.

Again, it depends on what you mean by "report." If the appraisal was communicated on paper, the client owns paper, but does not own the depictions or content. It's no different than buying a CD published by a musician. You own the plastic, not what's on it. You have a limited right to "use" (not own) the contents of the CD.

 

[George W Dodd]

Mr. Dodd,

Sorry, I actually don't associate everything with USPAP and/or the ASB.

I was referring to a past position I held for the AI. (Do you really think the AI got involved in AIRD without researching this issue?) It is you that has brought up my ASB service.

Mr. Wiley I owe you an apology and I sincerely offer it. I jump to a conclusion that you were using your ASB experience to lend weight to your opinion on copyright and I was wrong.

Honestly it never occurred to me that a residential appraiser would be using their affiliation with the development of AIRD in an open forum.

I do believe you when you state that the AI researched the issue to find out how a system could be setup to legally profit from it. That is my opinion, but if you don't agree I'm asking why else they would implement it.


Perhaps you will take up the challenge of my previous question -If copyrighting an appraisal report protects data such as the GLA, then why will the Copyright Office provide that data (the GLA) from registered appraisal reports to anyone who requests it?

You are correct that copyrighting does not protect fact. And before I can answer your request we need to find a common definition of "fact" to decide if copyrighting applies.

For example, if I measure a house and determine that the GLA is 1,203 sqft. Is that a fact or opinion? Well, what if you measured the same house and determined that the GLA was 1,199 sqft, is that now a fact?
I'm just using this as an example of how one person's "fact" could be another's "opinion".

The question then becomes what elements of the appraisal report are "fact" and what elements are "opinion" and maybe these are the real questions we should be asking.

I don't know why the copyright would answer your question about GLA. Is the report recorded as a published work or unpublished work?


I think I have asked this 3 times now, and the silence has been deafening.

Let work on the definition of "fact" first and once there is an agreement then we can apply it to the elements of the report.