copywriting

[Richard Carlsen]

Let work on the definition of "fact" first and once there is an agreement then we can apply it to the elements of the report.

Rather than get into minutia, why is it that someone has not come up with a really good reason for wanting to copyright an appraisal report?

Again, it depends on what you mean by "report." If the appraisal was communicated on paper, the client owns paper, but does not own the depictions or content. It's no different than buying a CD published by a musician. You own the plastic, not what's on it. You have a limited right to "use" (not own) the contents of the CD.

If you are going to attempt to retain any of the rights to any part of the appraisal report, then you have to assert that claim. To assert the claim to any intellectual property rights, you will have to alter or amend the Limiting Conditions contained in the FNMA forms. That you are prohibited from doing by the assignment conditions (Supplemental Standards). Ergo, you cannot assert any claim to the intellectual property contained in an appraisal that is headed for the secondary market with the FNMA assignment conditions. And the entire report with all rights are conveyed to the client.

Sorry........

 

[Mr Rex]

Because an appraisal "done right" is a thing of such beauty and rarity that it must be protected, like the spotted owl and red cockaded woodpecker, before its too late. Market forces are eliminating them, including market appetites for owl and woodpecker, because of all the regulation.

 

[Joe Booth]

TRW, Moodys, Thomson Financial etc etc etc. They compile and report data for a fee and it's copyrighten. Why should our reports be any different?

 

[Richard Carlsen]

Because an appraisal "done right" is a thing of such beauty and rarity that it must be protected, like the spotted owl and red cockaded woodpecker, before its too late. Market forces are eliminating them, including market appetites for owl and woodpecker, because of all the regulation.

Now that's the best reason I've heard yet. Better call Algore and see if climate change will effect value while you are at it.

 

[Fred]

If you are going to attempt to retain any of the rights to any part of the appraisal report, then you have to assert that claim.

I don’t know what you mean by part of the “report.” I can only envision claiming ownership of the appraisal, i.e. the report’s contents. I can’t imagine making any claim about owning the media, unless I wasn’t paid.

To assert the claim to any intellectual property rights, you will have to alter or amend the Limiting Conditions contained in the FNMA forms.

Never analyzed the form. Why don’t you post or indicate the part where the appraiser agrees to surrender all property rights? Is that cert #666?

 

[George W Dodd]

If you are going to attempt to retain any of the rights to any part of the appraisal report, then you have to assert that claim. To assert the claim to any intellectual property rights, you will have to alter or amend the Limiting Conditions contained in the FNMA forms. That you are prohibited from doing by the assignment conditions (Supplemental Standards). Ergo, you cannot assert any claim to the intellectual property contained in an appraisal that is headed for the secondary market with the FNMA assignment conditions. And the entire report with all rights are conveyed to the client.
Sorry........

Richard,

I may be wrong but my understanding is that copyright automatically applies at the creation of the report whether it is recoded at the copyright office or not. And that the copyright has to be expressly granted in writing. I do not believe that the comments in the Limiting Conditions would meet this requirements.

The reason I asked about the definition of "fact" is because I believe it is an important component to the argument. If fact's can't be copyrighted then which elements of the report are "fact" and which are "opinion". I used the example of GLA because I think it's a gray area. To me it is the appraiser's opinion that the house is 1,205 sqft and not a fact. Take another example, room count, some may consider an open living and dining area as two rooms in the count while another might consider it just one. So is the room count "fact" or "opinion".

In most, if not all, of my reports the data I used is based on reconciled information from a variety of sources and is reported as my "opinion" for location, view, condition, room count, above and below grade living areas, etc. and I would not state that these are "facts".

These type of things can become extremely important if you are testifying in court or dragged into a Board hearing and one side tries to argue "fact" while the other says "opinion". Who is right? And do we want to be held to the standards that could result by saying its a "fact"?

A lot of the issue is about our reports being used to feed AVM's and that causes many of us to look closer at this issue. But there is another side to this that is being ignored and that is the reuse of appraisal reports for additional loans such as equity and even refinance.

I complete an appraisal for a lender on a purchase loan. The appraisal is used, the loan closes. Three months later the purchaser uses the same appraisal report to open an equity line. Now, assuming I have no liability exposure on the second loan (which may or may not be the case), isn't this a form of thief of services? Could the copyright law be applied in this case? I'm thinking that this may be the most likely scenario.

 

[Joyce Potts]

How come I never get a response to my question: If these real estate data resource companies can access and acquire factual data as to real estate via the county property appraiser's offices, tax rolls, etc., why are they mining appraisal reports?

 

[DWiley]

Let work on the definition of "fact" first and once there is an agreement then we can apply it to the elements of the report.

Debate on that matter would not be germane to the copyright issue.

As I stated earlier, while you are getting that GLA from the Copyright Office you can also get the HBU conclusion, the condition rating, the effective age and the value conclusion. These are all opinions. Again, if this information is protected, why will the Copyright Office “mine” this data, and give it to any one who asks?

The reason you can get this information is simple - copyright protects the way the information is presented, not the information itself. At least that’s how the nice lady I spoke to at the Copyright office explained it to me.

 

[George W Dodd]

So if you can't protect the information than copyright protection wouldn't apply to the mining of the data from the reports? maybe not.

But how about the second scenario: The reuse of the appraisal report for subsequent loans? Could not copyright be used in that case?

 

[Joyce Potts]

Joyce,

I suppose there is no truth to the rumor I heard about you applying to be president of my fan club. [He said with tongue in cheek]

You have often referred to appraisers "drinking the Kool-Aid." Tell me, if clients and vindictive competitors ask state boards to pursue charges of ETHICS RULE violations against appraisers who have registered copyrights on appraisal reports, thus making the assignment results a matter of public record, without the permission of the client, will you then refer to Kool-Aid Ala Mode?]/end quote.

The fact that you have your own fan club is disturbing enough.

It's only a matter of time before someone will solicit the courts to rule with regard to copyright vs. privacy.

But since you've chosen this road-- why is the appraiser subject to state appraisal board prosecution if they register their reports with the copyright office, yet the data miners who mine that data from those 'proprietary' reports for which they are supposedly only serving as a conduit or middle man, yet re-package it, distribute it to other sources and/or the profit from it, ARE NOT?

And spare me that all appraisers have signed their copyright away on every appraisal that has ever been data mined.

And you lost me with the Kool-Aid and Ala mode reference--specificity, please.