copywriting

[DWiley]

Danny is wrong asserting this.

If you will read carefully, I think you will see that I have not asserted - I have asked about the USPAP implications of making assigment results available to the public. It is those responding to my question that have asserted.

The USPAP/Constitution argument is a nice detour, but let's get back to the real question. Does "data mining" violate copyright law? I am going to ask this one last time -

If copyright protects information in an appraisal report they way you and others have claimed, why will the Copyright Office "mine" that data and provide it to those who request it?

Are you saying I am wrong about this? Must I post the GLA and the final value value opinion from a certain appraisal report to demonstrate that anyone can "mine" data via the Copyright Office?

DW

 

[Carnivore]

Are you saying I am wrong about this? Must I post the GLA and the final value value opinion from a certain appraisal report to demonstrate that anyone can "mine" data via the Copyright Office?

DW

Thats not the US copyright office mining intellectual property and providing it to you. That is you going there and getting it for your own use. If you use it without my permission I could and may file suit and settle this whole appraisal copyright argument in the next year or two or more.

In other words you may win or I may win. Do you want to take that risk on?
Are you ready to open that can of worms? More importantly are your clients ready for you to get this going?

People like the Zaioistas have a huge stake in this. If I lose so do they! They will lose bigger then me because nothing changes for me if I lose. It opens them up to huge potential losses for substantial investments in time and money.

I am not trying to threaten you. I can not stop you from doing anything. This is a WIN - WIN for you regardless of the outcome. If I lose then you will be a hero to some very large corporations. If I win then you will go down in history as someone who made the single most important contribution to the Residential/commercial appraisers in the nation.

 

[Fred]

The fact that you have your own fan club is disturbing enough.

So does Ginger Rogers.

If you use it without my permission I could and may file suit and settle this whole appraisal copyright argument in the next year or two or more.

Just my opinion, but working with USPAP has not clarified for some appraisers the difference between the appraisal and the report. Copyright law deprives others the right to make copies, I don't see how you will use that to stop people from using information taken from existing report copies.

 

[Carnivore]

Steven,

Good point! I dont have it in front of me, but I thought Tim's case settled that particular issue?

I believe I am correct in saying it is not my burden to prove what is and what is not my intellectual property. That is I believe the defendents burden.

 

[Fred]

You really give a lot of credibility to USPAP, yet, despite its existence and evolution over the last few years, it hasn't really done much to curb mortgage or appraisal fraud,

How do you know that it hasn't done much? Maybe without out it, there would be 10 times as much "fraud."

 

[Fred]

Hope springs eternal

Steven,

Good point! I dont have it in front of me, but I thought Tim's case settled that particular issue?

I'll write again. In that case, the offending party copied a significant portion of the report and placed it into a marketing brochure. I thought it was a good point about Ginger Rogers, too.

You might consider that if I have a good point, then no "good" lawyer would file this suit for you.

 

[Joyce Potts]

I'll write again. In that case, the offending party copied a significant portion of the report and placed it into a marketing brochure. I thought it was a good point about Ginger Rogers, too.

You might consider that if I have a good point, then no "good" lawyer would file this suit for you.

I thought the analogy was lame. Most fan clubs are organized and supported by their fans, not the 'star' themselves.

 

[Joyce Potts]

Another softball, the Constitution, of course. Copyright is based on fundamental language in the Constitution. However, registration is not required to have those rights, only creation of a work. If the law mandated registration, then one might cite a Jurisdictional Exception, but registration is not mandated. We all have copyright protection on the reports we write, even if we have never registered any of them.

That's the first time I've ever seen anyone refer to the US Constitution as a 'soft ball'. You've changed the argument for obvious reasons. We're not debating whether one has to register to be protected under copyright, we all agree it's already in place.



Fair enough. What has? And what does this have to do with copyright?

You're the one who cited the registration of an appraisal report was a violation of USPAP. What I understand you to say is that if the appraiser registers his works, he's in violation of USPAP because he violated the privacy aspects.



Appraisers had a golden opportunity to be in this game, but chose instead to sit on the sidelines and throw barbs at those trying to put them in the game.

Now that your last paragraph speaks volumes, but can you please elaborate?

 

[Pamela Crowley (Florida)]

Appraisers had a golden opportunity to be in this game, but chose instead to sit on the sidelines and throw barbs at those trying to put them in the game.

I remember that lame offer from the AI for the AIRD. No answer was for many a way of saying, "No way in He!! do I want to be involved with that!". I remember specifically stating to someone else about it that there was no way I would trust the data from certain appraisers enough to use it in my appraisals and I wasn't about to give my more correct data to them.

So... the AI and FNC decided to just steal it... ??? Sure looks that way to me! How many others are feeding appraisal reports that have been unlocked and altered into the FNC database(s)???

 

[Brad Ellis]

Interesting discussion- apart from the mudslinging- will everyone just stop that part and stick to the issues?

I note once again- although I have told you all repeatedly that it is the case- that no one is using data in your appraisal to populate an AVM. Period. Now Vernon has confirmed that and he was on the inside when all these things were developed. Not one AVM out there uses appraisal data; the mining is to build databases for the use of the client supplying the appraisals. And this is NOT being sold.

And please forget your hangups about FNC mining your reports to produce an AVM. They are contractually prohibited from doing so. Eventually that obligation may disappear- but it has not yet.

Now as to copyright laws trumping USPAP, I think not. Let's remember that to become an appraiser today you voluntarily apply for a license under your state law and agree to abide by USPAP. You are doing this voluntarily. And, it is pretty clear now that registering your report places it in the public domain and that is a direct violation of confidentiality.

Further, when you accept an assignment to do an appraisal under Fannie's guidelines, that becomes a part of your scope of work. That scope of work includes not modifying the certifications- and by signing those certs you authorize the client to distribute your report to data gathering sources. In addition, compliance with USPAP is a part of your assignment conditons for these orders. So, not only are you contravening the certifications, you are also violating USPAP. That sure seems like you are saying one thing and then doing another. That translates into a misleading report.

So, I have a suggestion to offer for your consideration:

Since the copyright accrues to you once the report is done- i.e. your original work (not necessarily all the individual contents) you retain your rights under copyright law without ever registering the thing. And if you do not register it you do not violate USPAP.

Now, let's say that someone goes out and publishes your unregistered, private, confidential report. I believe that you can register it after the fact in order to enforce your rights (whatever they may actually be). So, is it then possible to sue the offending party immediately upon registration when all know that the appraisal will then become a part of the court proceedings and become public?

Just musing...

And can we please stop using Mr. Vining's first case here? It nothing at all to do with content in a form report- it may apply to publishing/using the entire thing in an unauthorized way, but it does not speak at all to all the contents. That is yet to be decided by his second suit. And since his narrative report would not have contained a signed certification authorizing distribution to data gathering sources, how does this apply at all to the current question?

Finally, like Vernon's question about income from copyrighted stuff. I think it a part of this question- along with concerns that if all the data becomes available will it impact your business in any material way? I'd bet each and evry one of you heard contentions that AVMs would put you out of business- but they certainly did not,. In fact, their use is in being adopted by appraisers in an increasing (albeit pretty slow) manner.

Tempest in a teacup to me.

Brad