copywriting

[DWiley]

Follow up question

If GLA is protected by copyright in the manner some claim, how is that the U.S. Copyright Office will provide that information (the GLA) from appraisal reports that have been registered? If it was protected by copright surely the Copyright Office itself would not give it out!!
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Andrew,

Because of positions I have held in the past, this is a topic I have researched fairly extensively. The banter on this Forum has inspired me to do even more research on the matter.

Some of the stuff that is out there is misleading. For example, in the videos archived on the AlaMode site Dave Biggers (owner of AlaMode) is the last speaker. He makes several comments about copyrighting your data. At one point he says - this is a paraphrase, not an exact quote -

The lawyers are cringing over here because I am saying "data". I am using the shorthand notation. When is say data I mean the whole report. Are we OK now?​

Well, there is a huge difference between the report and the data in the report. He goes on to repeatedly talk about copyrighting data, despite his own statement, and the statements of the lawyers on the panel, that one cannot copyright data. I consider this very misleading.

I agree with Mr. Biggers that the data in an appraisal report has value, and appraisers have every right to benefit from that value. However, when offered opportunities to do that, many appraisers have rejected those opportunities. Many have not. There are many local and regional databases around the country that compensate appraisers for contributing data. In fact, in some areas this is the primary data source.

DW

 

[Carnivore]

Danny,

I recall the cringing vividly since I was sitting right next to him.

Thats a good point about the shared revenues. I seem to recall this differently then you do. If I recall correctly, the offerors were rather cryptic about how much compensation would be paid to the offerees. Very similar to the current ZAIO and the Zaioistas situation.

 

[Steve Metz]

I have always copyrighted my narrative art appraisals and was able to win a settlement against another appraisal company that took a copy of my report and repackaged it and put thier name on it for another use. It is worth it. I

put the notice in my addenum on real estate appraisers and not had a problem with it.

Photos, Sketches and narrative addendums are copywright material.

 

[Carnivore]

I have always copywrited my narrative art appraisals and was able to win a judgement against another appraisal company that took a copy of my report and repackaged it and put thier name on it for another use. It is worth it. I put the notice in my addenum on real estate appraisers and not had a problem with it.

Photos, Sketches and narrative addendums are copywrite material.

If you have that case would you be able to forward it to me. I know several people in Washington DC that would be very interested in getting a copy of that case.

PM me and I will give you my e-mail. If not, then let me know some particulars so we can look it up ourselves.

 

[DWiley]

If I recall correctly, the offerors were rather cryptic about how much compensation would be paid to the offerees.

They offered 50% of whatever they could sell it for. Of course, there was no way to know what it could be sold for. The market was untested. I assume they would try to get the highest price they could, because that would mean more revenue for the company actually running the database.

Again, I don't dispute that one can copyright an appraisal report. However, repackaging one's presentation is very different that using the information in the presentation.
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I really would apprecate a response to my follow up question from some of the copyright gurus. If GLA is protected by copyright, why will the Copyright Office provide that information from appraisal reports that have been registered?

Another question: Once one registers a copyright on an appraisal report, information in that report, including the final value conclusion is publicly available. If one has not received permission from the client to register the report, how does one reconcile publicly disclosing assignment results with an appraiser's obligations regarding confidentiality? The Constitution guarantees protection, but one does not have to register to be protected.

DW

 

[Lawrence R.]

You need to send a pm to Tim Vining if you want the low down on this process.

He is the real deal on this topic.

 

[Terrel L. Shields]

If you are going to copywrite, all you need is to copy the ad or story at the newspaper.

If you are going to copyright, well, that's a different story.
---
being TC while TC's away

 

[Fred]

If you are going to copywrite
If you are going to copyright

Thank you.

 

[Brad Ellis]

Danny,

I'l freely admit that I was quite uninformed on the copyright stuff at the start and, like you, have been doing lots of research on the issue.

Now I learn something new again- that the copyright office will disclose data in a report that has been registered. Quite interesting and I concur that this would appear to be a direct violation of the confidentiality provisions in USPAP if it is unavailable from another public source.

Although the copyright office is an agency of the government, no appraiser is compelled to register the report. Therefore, no jurisdictional exception would be in play. Further, from what I have read, as regards the case of Mr. Metz, I believe the copyright can be registered after the fact so that in such a circumstance the copyrights can be enforced.

One poster has noted that Tim Vining should be consulted. Well, with all due respect to Mr. Vining- who once rose to my defense when someone on the AI forum called me stupid about this matter, by responding that no- I was not stupid, just ignorant. A very useful comment indeed. :laugh:

But what we know about the case that he won is that it involved a narrative report that was apparently partially copied verbatim for inclusion in some other marketing publication. That seems to be a far cry from reusing/recasting data from within that report.

Now he and his attorneys apparently believe that the data in a form report can also be covered by these rights. Again, with respect, neither he nor his attorneys are judges, none are impartial bystanders here and I think that the result of the class action suit against FNC (I am told there are two members of the class and that the suit is pending but have not checked that) will provide a far more definitive answer than anything we have had before.

Unless and until he wins, I'll continue to keep my own opinion on this and contend that data within a form appraisal report is not copyrighted. Neither would the presentation itself, in my view, be copyrighted since the format is not at all original to the author; it was developed by the GSEs. Therefore, the way I see it, any such format rights would belong to the GSEs.

Now, I might well agree that certain information might belong to the appraiser/author- such as condition ratings, etc. that can be construed as opinions and not facts.

I also continue to wonder how any such data, if it is derived from an MLS system that copyrights their listing information, could be then registered by the appraiser? Would not the copyrights accrue to the MLS or the uploading broker? How can someone register a copyright on something that another has already registered?

Now, if we add to that the wording in certification 21 that permits the client to disseminate that information to "data gathering sources" and that the appraiser actually signs, it seems to me that claiming such copyrights is a fairly steep uphill climb. If that information was not intended to be gathered and reused, why would that even be in there?

So, I am in full agreement with you on this issue. While copyrights accrue to the presentation as a whole as an original work, they would not apply to factual data from within that original work.

And, I was one of those who participated in the old SREA Redbook/Redlink and received credits against my subscription for data I submitted. And, of course, when the AIRD was established every appraiser had the opportunity to participate and derive financial benefit from participating. Many chose not to and now we see at least some crying foul.

Coals to Newcastle...

Brad

 

[Mike Boyd]

Danny,

I'l freely admit that I was quite uninformed on the copyright stuff at the start and, like you, have been doing lots of research on the issue.


Brad,

You were quoted in WORKING RE that IndieMac would not accept an appraisal report noting any copyright. Can you tell us if Fannie or Freddie has any position on this issue?