• Welcome to AppraisersForum.com, the premier online  community for the discussion of real estate appraisal. Register a free account to be able to post and unlock additional forums and features.

Data Cancer found....

Mr. Crawford, Welcome to the forum!

Don't be too hard on George. He exhibits the highest standards of the appraisal profession and is highly regarded. He just wants to get down to the truth Playing devil's advocate.

Shoot, with his knowledge of the profession, he could be on one of your shows.

Speaking of your show, you threw it out there for all to hear and view. I'm sure you're used to critiques by now.... if you stick your head up out of the crowd, someone's going to throw a rock at it.

We look forward to your contributions with your show and hopefully, more here in the Forum.
 
". Waivers, to me, have no more impact than a cash sale; both do not require an appraisal."

Several key differences A cash sale, like other sales, can have a price that is over, in line with, or higher than the market - most issues revolve around higher than market prices - a cash buyer is using their own money, so if they overpay, only they are affected. Since they paid all cash, they have plenty of equity, even if they overpay or the market declines.

With a WAIVER, the taxpayers bail out loans that get in trouble wrt overpaid/overvalued. An owner can go underwater,

Cash sales are disclosed - an appraiser sees it sold for cash on MLS. An appraiser thus can adjust for it or discard the sale if it looks like the use of cash affected the price, a WAIVER is not disclosed - so an appraiser does not know if the financing valuation affectged the price or not,

It also lets more overpriced sales occur in the market - I can't recall any other era where property the values for financed loans were determined by vested interest parties ( the agent with their purchase price or the loan officer-putting an estimate of value in for refinance ) and yes, we know that there is an AVM done by FF as well -in these.
 
George, are you seriously suggesting that appraisals, in some cases, are not a factor in market prices?
Of course not. What I'm saying is that "regulating market pricing" isn't a stated use of mortgage lending appraisals. As well, "the market participants as a group" are not a stated user class of mortgage lending appraisals, either.

The lenders use appraisals and AVMs to make loan decisions - how safe/sound is this loan when compared to the current pricing. They don't use appraisals to regulate the pricing in the market, either.

As appraisers I think we need to mindful of the point that an AVM-backed waiver doesn't support or validate the contract price. It only validates the loan decision. That discretion is always on the lender.
 
Now if we want to say the GSEs have additional obligations to the RE market as a whole then that might be a valid point to discuss. But if a borrower can clear however many criteria it takes to qualify for a 50% LTV loan (lets say there are 15 of them) , or they can clear however many criteria it takes to qualify for an 80%% LTV (perhaps 20 of them) or however many criteria it takes to qualify for a 97% LTV (perhaps 25 or 30 of them) then those criteria are established at the lender.

There's no saying that the qualifications it takes to get the 100% LTV are exactly the same as for the 80% LTV, even within the same lending or underwriting program. Similarly, the assumption seems to be that the AVM is always high. Not low, and not within reason from a lending perspective. It's always or often an unsafe value conclusion for a lender to use. Another assumption is that the waivers are all being given out independent of the borrower's income, credit, employment stability, etc.

I daresay all these assumptions are subject to challenge, and that even if one of them was a reasonable assumption to make in the past their program may have changed in the interim or may change in the future as circumstances warrant.
 
The effect from using appraisals on prices is a side result, not an intended aim or purpose of the appraisal.
 
I watched the video and heard the claims made by Phil. Waivers, to me, have no more impact than a cash sale; both do not require an appraisal.

To be clear; I do not support waivers as I believe this trend could be abused by participants in the market by manipulating sale prices to achieve a desired LTV to trigger said waiver. Concessions, paid back to the buyer could resettle the inflated offer back to the original offer. Often, these concessions go unreported in the MLS and on Zillow and other sites.

The $430K sale appears to have a long view of the lake. Perhaps the buyer paid a premium for the long view of the lake, rather than just a view across the narrow portion. I do not see any other sale balloons showing other sales have this unique view. There are far too many variables to just declare that the waiver caused a "too-high-of-a-price sale". I don't buy it.

Also, the 430K waiver sale took place in April. The other prior sales took place in February. In my area, the market can transition quickly and dramatically from winter to spring.

Also, there was no discussion as to the overall features of the 430K sale. George Hatch even indicated a rather large deck. Perhaps that large deck contributed to the premium price. Such features will increase the price/sf. The deck looks like the kind that could host large gatherings. Large decks are very expensive to build.

Also, I do not consider our job is to shepherd the real estate market. We observe and report. The market takes care of that itself to it's benefit or detriment. A single appraisal report cannot shield a mass upswing or downturn in the market.

Also, if an appraisal were ordered on this sale, how do we know that it would not have appraised out? Or, if it did not, how do we know if the buyer would have made up the difference between the OMV in the report and the sale price? Answer, we don't.

Also, Phil seems to think that a RE agent's fiduciary responsibility extends to a requirement to inform buyers that they should seek an appraisal. They themselves are real estate professionals that can help a buyer with data to see what is an appropriate sale price for a house. See below for a real estate agent's fiduciary responsibility per NAR. No where in the list does it state that an agent must, or should, suggest the buyer get an appraisal, specifically.


The real cancer:
I believe the real cancer in the data is misreported sale prices and omissions of details regarding concessions etc... My example of such data cancer are two sales comparables (both discovered in the last month no less). In both cases I called the agent to verify the conditions of the sale. You all should do that. Verifying why the buyer paid the amount they do is eye-opening. Yeah, it takes more time, but it is worth it.

1) The first sale I came across had a sale price reported as $790K by Zillow. The actual price ended in an odd amount. I use Total as my software. The data is shared with other users of Total. After you type in the address, you can see how other appraisers, using the same software, used the same comp. When I started typing in the address, I noted that a few other appraisers used this sale at the $790k mark. I called the agent. The agent verified the price was actually $905k. She could only speculate as to why the price in Zillow was off more than $100k.

2) Another sale I came across indicated a price that was just over $400k. The MLS indicated a 3 car garage. I called the agent as the MLS photos and assessors data showed only a 1-car garage. Turns out the price paid to the seller was actually $5k less than what the MLS indicated. The other 5k? That was what the buyer paid to procure 2 garage stalls across the alley that was not connected to the subject property nor was owned by the seller (the garage stalls were part of a bank of garages that can be leased and are part of an HOA). The agent just combined the two transactions. And yes, other appraisers used the MLS reported price, not the correct price.

These two are just in the last month.

I find that most sale prices are accurate, but that sale concessions are not always reported. Also, don't assume that all concessions are for closing costs. About half of them, I find, are for repairs the buyer will incur after they take possession.
The recorded warranty deed will verify the final sales price at least where I work.
 
Now if we want to say the GSEs have additional obligations to the RE market as a whole then that might be a valid point to discuss. But if a borrower can clear however many criteria it takes to qualify for a 50% LTV loan (lets say there are 15 of them) , or they can clear however many criteria it takes to qualify for an 80%% LTV (perhaps 20 of them) or however many criteria it takes to qualify for a 97% LTV (perhaps 25 or 30 of them) then those criteria are established at the lender.

There's no saying that the qualifications it takes to get the 100% LTV are exactly the same as for the 80% LTV, even within the same lending or underwriting program. Similarly, the assumption seems to be that the AVM is always high. Not low, and not within reason from a lending perspective. It's always or often an unsafe value conclusion for a lender to use. Another assumption is that the waivers are all being given out independent of the borrower's income, credit, employment stability, etc.

I daresay all these assumptions are subject to challenge, and that even if one of them was a reasonable assumption to make in the past their program may have changed in the interim or may change in the future as circumstances warrant.
The threshold has been raised to 90% LTV loans for waivers now.

I don't think increasing the profit margin to lenders by seeing a higher rate of loans go through with WAIVERS is worth disrupting RE markets, but that's just me.
 
Many agents locally don't care about market value. They care about selling the property. They look at prices and say well let me list it for $X. Then when it don't sell for what the agent has told the seller in a reasonable time, the agent will tell the seller we need to lower the asking price and seller will likely agree most of the time.
 
Cash sales are disclosed - an appraiser sees it sold for cash on MLS. An appraiser thus can adjust for it or discard the sale if it looks like the use of cash affected the price, a WAIVER is not disclosed - so an appraiser does not know if the financing valuation affectged the price or not,
That's what I was saying....a waiver should be notated in the MLS. When analyzing the data, it could be scrubbed or investigated further.
With a WAIVER, the taxpayers bail out loans that get in trouble wrt overpaid/overvalued. An owner can go underwater,
And there it is.... the lenders are not loaning their own money. Why would they have the need for an appraisal?

Mejappz started a thread where NAR is up in arms about waivers. It appears that they got wind that they'd be left holding the bag under their fiduciary responsibilities to their clients.
 
Find a Real Estate Appraiser - Enter Zip Code

Copyright © 2000-, AppraisersForum.com, All Rights Reserved
AppraisersForum.com is proudly hosted by the folks at
AppraiserSites.com
Back
Top