First In Series - Ivpi Q&a #1

[Ken B]

Kenneth,

Tell me, do you remember working on the panel when you thought it was working well; and if so, what did you like about it at that time?

Working well for whom?

For a repeat performance of my previous post...



"Mr. Brown, how much work is required if you acheive a value lower than the contract sales price?"

"Well, Mr. Brown, VA has a policy which permits the client to request a reconsidertion of value in such an event. A number of years ago, VA attempted to streamline this process by establishing a policy where the appraiser was to call the contact indicated on the 1805 (appraisal request for all you non-VA types). The appraiser was to ask the contact if they had any market data they might desire that the appraiser review. Now, we aren't supposed to discuss value with anyone, but everyone knows that 'that call' means. There is more to the process, but it really designed to reduce turn times and burden on all involved."

"Mr. Brown, I heard a rumor that VA fees were competitive with typical fees charged by an appraiser for similar services. Do you have a comment on that?"

"I am glad you asked that question Mr. Brown. It truly is an excellent question. You see, VA establishes fees periodically by sending out a questionaire to VA appraisers and LAPP lenders. In this questionaire, VA requests that, among other things, fees and turnaround times for typical conventional assignments be reported. Well, I think you can imagine that there is a big difference between what appraisers report, on average, and what lenders report. Anyway, VA studies these questionaires and decides upon a standard fee for VA appraisals and an acceptable turnaround time. Now, don't you know that I also thought is was curious that the established fee was always a little bit less than my standard fee for conventional work. Actually, most recently, the standard VA fee was 87.5% less than my conventional fee. And don't you also know that fee and turn times are the same regardless of property complexity? It can be pretty frustrating when you get a letter from a VA review appraiser informing you that you exceed the required turnaround time and that the letter would be 'added to your official file and continued POOR PERFORMANCE (VA's words, not mine) would be grounds for removal from the fee panel."

"Thank you Mr. Brown, your information has been quite enlightening. Now, if you don't mind, I do have one final question. I hear that VA appraisers have it pretty easy. Getting assignments on a rotational basis and all; any comments?"

"Mr. Brown, I have to tell you. Way back when, the VA fee panel was fairly small. VA work probably accounted for anywhere between 33% to 50% of my monthly workload. And it was kind of nice knowing that each day, an assignment would show up out of the blue and you didn't really have to do anything to get it. You didn't have to spend any time or money marketing your services, buying bagels or donuts on Fridays for your best clien, getting out and shaking hands and smiling at lame jokes...you know how that goes.

Anyway, along came this big refinance boom in the early 2000s. We were working like crazy and life was good. But is seems a few lenders decided to complain to VA about turn times. So, VA decides it would be a great idea to open up the fee panel. Now, it used to be a sign of high competance and significant experience to be accepted to the fee panel. Personal interviews, sample appraisals on a VA owned property, the whole bit. But when they openned up the fee panel, it seems like anyone with a pulse was added.

Now, don't you know they added all these new VA appraisers just before the refi boom came to a crashing halt. Oops. Now, will all the new VA fee appraisers and few VA appraisals, we were lucky to get 3 or 4 VA appraisal requests a month. Ouch! But, despite the low numbers of requests, VA still expected to be treated as a 'favorite client.' They will tell you they only expect VA requests to be treated with the same consideration for timeliness and fee as regular work, but it's a lie. There, you have it. It's a lie. It's not the fault of anyone on the VA staff. It's just the nature of working with the government."

"Thank you, Mr. Brown. We are appreciate your time with us here today. Do you have any final comments?"

"Well, thank you for having me. It has been a pleasure. In closing, I would like to state that, for the record, my biggest complaint about the rotational assignment system is that there is no means to select who you will and will not work for. I say that because my business model, outside of VA assignments, is to provide superior service to superior clients. To me, a superior client is one which pays well and on time, does not ask for too many 'favors', and who respects me and my time. Don't you know that the only clients I have ever had difficulty with regarding collection of fee are those that are assigned to me by VA. These same clients will also call daily wanting to know status and values...even though they should know that the appraiser cannot discuss value with anyone besides the VA reviewer and/or underwriter. I tell you, it just wasn't worth the trouble. On a positive side, the experience did help encourage me to move on to bigger and better things!"

"There you have it Ladies and Gentlemen. Let's all give a big round of applause!"

You don't really want to know what I thought regarding the interpersonal skill skills of most VA appraisers I knew; there is a good reason most lenders have a sincere dislike of VA appraisers. It's not so much their supposed "ethics" as it is their general hostile attitude. I wouldn't let anyone talk to me the way some of them think it is acceptable to talk to lenders, often for no reason other than they can get away with it.

Attending the annual VA meetings was a real eye-opener regarding the lack of knowledge some VA appraisers had of USPAP. I also have personal knowledge that many did not keep current on VA requirements.

And, for the record, one of the biggest so called "Skippies" in my previous work area is/was a VA appraiser. He appraised a residence for a purchase I made; I have seen his work. And when I attempted to discretely talk with the lender about his checking off that he "inspected" as the supervisory appraiser, but buried in an addendum was verbiage that the inspection "may" have been virtual, not on-site, the lender got..."****y"...real fast. And the agent who accompanied the actual appraiser confirmed that the supervisory appraiser did not inspect, despite checking the block that he did. (Per the agent, a "she" inspected...pretty good evidence that "he" was not the inspecting appraiser.)

I have seen other examples of pure BS appraisals performed by VA appraisers.

If the VA fee panel is your model regarding the idea of the perfect relationship between appraiser and lender, it's a pretty poor model.

But that is just my informed opinion developed upon personal experience.

 

[PropertyEconomics]

Working well for whom?

For a repeat performance of my previous post...



"Mr. Brown, how much work is required if you acheive a value lower than the contract sales price?"

"Well, Mr. Brown, VA has a policy which permits the client to request a reconsidertion of value in such an event. A number of years ago, VA attempted to streamline this process by establishing a policy where the appraiser was to call the contact indicated on the 1805 (appraisal request for all you non-VA types). The appraiser was to ask the contact if they had any market data they might desire that the appraiser review. Now, we aren't supposed to discuss value with anyone, but everyone knows that 'that call' means. There is more to the process, but it really designed to reduce turn times and burden on all involved."

"Mr. Brown, I heard a rumor that VA fees were competitive with typical fees charged by an appraiser for similar services. Do you have a comment on that?"

"I am glad you asked that question Mr. Brown. It truly is an excellent question. You see, VA establishes fees periodically by sending out a questionaire to VA appraisers and LAPP lenders. In this questionaire, VA requests that, among other things, fees and turnaround times for typical conventional assignments be reported. Well, I think you can imagine that there is a big difference between what appraisers report, on average, and what lenders report. Anyway, VA studies these questionaires and decides upon a standard fee for VA appraisals and an acceptable turnaround time. Now, don't you know that I also thought is was curious that the established fee was always a little bit less than my standard fee for conventional work. Actually, most recently, the standard VA fee was 87.5% less than my conventional fee. And don't you also know that fee and turn times are the same regardless of property complexity? It can be pretty frustrating when you get a letter from a VA review appraiser informing you that you exceed the required turnaround time and that the letter would be 'added to your official file and continued POOR PERFORMANCE (VA's words, not mine) would be grounds for removal from the fee panel."

"Thank you Mr. Brown, your information has been quite enlightening. Now, if you don't mind, I do have one final question. I hear that VA appraisers have it pretty easy. Getting assignments on a rotational basis and all; any comments?"

"Mr. Brown, I have to tell you. Way back when, the VA fee panel was fairly small. VA work probably accounted for anywhere between 33% to 50% of my monthly workload. And it was kind of nice knowing that each day, an assignment would show up out of the blue and you didn't really have to do anything to get it. You didn't have to spend any time or money marketing your services, buying bagels or donuts on Fridays for your best clien, getting out and shaking hands and smiling at lame jokes...you know how that goes.

Anyway, along came this big refinance boom in the early 2000s. We were working like crazy and life was good. But is seems a few lenders decided to complain to VA about turn times. So, VA decides it would be a great idea to open up the fee panel. Now, it used to be a sign of high competance and significant experience to be accepted to the fee panel. Personal interviews, sample appraisals on a VA owned property, the whole bit. But when they openned up the fee panel, it seems like anyone with a pulse was added.

Now, don't you know they added all these new VA appraisers just before the refi boom came to a crashing halt. Oops. Now, will all the new VA fee appraisers and few VA appraisals, we were lucky to get 3 or 4 VA appraisal requests a month. Ouch! But, despite the low numbers of requests, VA still expected to be treated as a 'favorite client.' They will tell you they only expect VA requests to be treated with the same consideration for timeliness and fee as regular work, but it's a lie. There, you have it. It's a lie. It's not the fault of anyone on the VA staff. It's just the nature of working with the government."

"Thank you, Mr. Brown. We are appreciate your time with us here today. Do you have any final comments?"

"Well, thank you for having me. It has been a pleasure. In closing, I would like to state that, for the record, my biggest complaint about the rotational assignment system is that there is no means to select who you will and will not work for. I say that because my business model, outside of VA assignments, is to provide superior service to superior clients. To me, a superior client is one which pays well and on time, does not ask for too many 'favors', and who respects me and my time. Don't you know that the only clients I have ever had difficulty with regarding collection of fee are those that are assigned to me by VA. These same clients will also call daily wanting to know status and values...even though they should know that the appraiser cannot discuss value with anyone besides the VA reviewer and/or underwriter. I tell you, it just wasn't worth the trouble. On a positive side, the experience did help encourage me to move on to bigger and better things!"

"There you have it Ladies and Gentlemen. Let's all give a big round of applause!"

You don't really want to know what I thought regarding the interpersonal skill skills of most VA appraisers I knew; there is a good reason most lenders have a sincere dislike of VA appraisers. It's not so much their supposed "ethics" as it is their general hostile attitude. I wouldn't let anyone talk to me the way some of them think it is acceptable to talk to lenders, often for no reason other than they can get away with it.

Attending the annual VA meetings was a real eye-opener regarding the lack of knowledge some VA appraisers had of USPAP. I also have personal knowledge that many did not keep current on VA requirements.

And, for the record, one of the biggest so called "Skippies" in my previous work area is/was a VA appraiser. He appraised a residence for a purchase I made; I have seen his work. And when I attempted to discretely talk with the lender about his checking off that he "inspected" as the supervisory appraiser, but buried in an addendum was verbiage that the inspection "may" have been virtual, not on-site, the lender got..."****y"...real fast. And the agent who accompanied the actual appraiser confirmed that the supervisory appraiser did not inspect, despite checking the block that he did. (Per the agent, a "she" inspected...pretty good evidence that "he" was not the inspecting appraiser.)

I have seen other examples of pure BS appraisals performed by VA appraisers.

If the VA fee panel is your model regarding the idea of the perfect relationship between appraiser and lender, it's a pretty poor model.

But that is just my informed opinion developed upon personal experience.

Kenneth .. can you show me the fee schedule for VA in your area? We are not experiencing anything like that in my area. An 87% cut is pretty huge .... Id like to see the documentation from the VA setting forth those fees if you dont mind.
That would mean for every $100 of your conventional fee youd make $12.50 which would mean a standard $400 fee would get $50 from the VA .. Honestly I find it very hard to believe but I would love to see the documentation.

 

[Otis Key]

Working well for whom?

For a repeat performance of my previous post...

Sarcasm deleted - ahh hell - I couldn't separate it so all of this was deleted. Sorry about that - not really, to be honest.

You don't really want to know what I thought regarding the interpersonal skill skills of most VA appraisers I knew;

And that should be the judgment for the rest of the USA? FWIW - the appraisers, overall, here on the VA panel are some of the sharpest residential appraisers I know - in fact I called one tonight and had a very intellectual conversation - I know many who even have a Master's Degree. But that doesn't necessarily impy that it's the same across the USA.

there is a good reason most lenders have a sincere dislike of VA appraisers. It's not so much their supposed "ethics" as it is their general hostile attitude. I wouldn't let anyone talk to me the way some of them think it is acceptable to talk to lenders, often for no reason other than they can get away with it.

As someone who was on the VA panel for more years than I'd like to remember and who was the "beating dog" for the "Regional VA Review Appraiser" (and someone who hasn't been on the panel for over 10 years but the SOB was forced into retirement) I can say - I DO understand the hostility! The "review" appraiser here would tell the appraiser "do it this way" even after objections (NOTING USPAP HERE) and then tell him/her "do it that way" the next, even after objections (AGAIN NOTING USPAP HERE). I learned how to comply with USPAP, which had just come into requirement and make HIM the focus of it - jurisdictional exception (I didn't say that).

Attending the annual VA meetings was a real eye-opener regarding the lack of knowledge some VA appraisers had of USPAP. I also have personal knowledge that many did not keep current on VA requirements.

And what was the license level, or experience level of those folks, if you don't mind me asking (My insert - generalizations [i.e. "broad brush"])

And, for the record, one of the biggest so called "Skippies" in my previous work area is/was a VA appraiser. He appraised a residence for a purchase I made; I have seen his work. And when I attempted to discretely talk with the lender about his checking off that he "inspected" as the supervisory appraiser, but buried in an addendum was verbiage that the inspection "may" have been virtual, not on-site, the lender got..."****y"...real fast. And the agent who accompanied the actual appraiser confirmed that the supervisory appraiser did not inspect, despite checking the block that he did. (Per the agent, a "she" inspected...pretty good evidence that "he" was not the inspecting appraiser.)

I'm sorry, but many here know, I have a question for you - if you had the proof, why didn't you turn him into THE STATE BOARD? That statement is not, IMHO, in compliance with USPAP and hasn't been - state what you did and what you didn't do! I won't say lame excuse

I have seen other examples of pure BS appraisals performed by VA appraisers.

If the VA fee panel is your model regarding the idea of the perfect relationship between appraiser and lender, it's a pretty poor model.

But that is just my informed opinion developed upon personal experience.

If you say so - when's the last time you looked at conventional appraisers?

There are people who have spent days, weeks, hours of what should have been "family time" working on this stuff. Do you have a better suggestion? We are being pushed into the corner, and labeled, again!

Provide a better "mouse trap"!

Edit to add: 87.5% of conventional fees? I agree with PE - HELL no one in their rights minds, or even wrong minds, would do the appraisals - I could pick up aluminum and glass along side the road and make that kind of money with no liability.

 

[toya05]

It's a no brainer either you what to make $350 from IVPI or $150 from AMC's. Cuomo, Syron, and Lockhart have set the table it's up to us united to decide what's on the menu. The word united is key because we have a small window to get our order in(the end of April). We have been given a opportunity to put in effect a system that would give us and the public a more effective way of Independent Valuation. The IVPI proposal is a good start and can in my opinion give everybody something to look forward to. If AMC's take over how will any appraiser make a good living based on what is about to go down. We have to stay united people. Please send the proposal to everyone concerned and keep a open mind. PS: Look at it this way if AMC's are the future then get out your check book because in order to get a fair amount of work and make good money. How many do you think you'll have to join?

 

[PropertyEconomics]

I could pick up aluminum and glass along side the road and make that kind of money with no liability.

Was that you along the Interstate this morning? Damn .. had I known I would have stopped an thrown a couple of cans out ... Sorry Otis ... I just didnt know it was you. And I had a couple of used tall boys in the truck too .... would have meant extra money for you.

 

[Otis Key]

Was that you along the Interstate this morning? Damn .. had I known I would have stopped an thrown a couple of cans out ... Sorry Otis ... I just didnt know it was you.

Good thing I jumped out of your swerving truck path - BTW, I did get that (unnamed) can you threw out the window.

 

[toya05]

It's a no brainer either you what to make $350 from IVPI or $150 from AMC's. Cuomo, Syron, and Lockhart have set the table it's up to us united to decide what's on the menu. The word united is key because we have a small window to get our order in(the end of April). We have been given a opportunity to put in effect a system that would give us and the public a more effective way of Independent Valuation. The IVPI proposal is a good start and can in my opinion give everybody something to look forward to. If AMC's take over how will any appraiser make a good living based on what is about to go down. We have to stay united people. Please send the proposal to everyone concerned and keep a open mind. PS: Look at it this way if AMC's are the future then get out your check book because in order to get a fair amount of work and make good money. How many do you think you'll have to join?

 

[Ken B]

It amazes me how some feel that they can deny the experience and opinions of others.

My stated opinions and experience were exactly that. Someone else had a different experience, so be it.

And yes, there is a big difference between 87.5% "less" and 87.5% "of". The "less" was incorrect. My bad; thanks for identifying the mistake.

And I have already identified in a previous post what I think is the best option for all. It is already an option provided by the HVCC.

 

[Mike Kennedy]

I take it then that the answer to the question is yes, is there some reason you cannot just say that, so that everyone is clear as to the answer?

1. refer to Your own post #65.

2. post 80, An impenetrable “shield” will be established requiring Lenders and/or LO/MBs to order appraisals through IVPI.

 

[Mike Kennedy]

All longer term, and newer, AF Members are encouraged to actually read the Home Valuation Protection Agreement, the Home Valuation Code of Conduct, the Independent Valuation Protection Institute PROPOSAL, and the Q&A.


http://appraisersforum.com/showthread.php?t=136026